Criticism on Romantic Option Availability.

[Big Dogy :)]

I'm going to try and keep this simple and accessible rather than a ten thousand word sourced essay, but I'm incredibly disappointed in Paizo and in the game studio that created PF:WotR and how they handled the romantic paths. Specifically, I'm incredibly disappointed that if you don't want to be straight, and if you don't want to be a lesbian, but you wanted to play a romantic path, you get...kinda completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ shafted, on so many levels.

As a tally, the current romanceable characters, and who can romance them:

Wenduag, a woman: Commander gender does not matter.
Arueshalae, a woman: Commander gender does not matter.
Camellia, a woman: Heterosexual.
Queen Galfrey, a woman: Commander gender does not matter.
Lann, a man: Heterosexual.
Sosiel, a man: Heterosexual.
Daeran, a man: Commander gender does not matter.

A female commander can romance 6 out of 7 characters, half of whom would fall under a straight relationship.

A male commander can romance 5 out of 7 characters.

A single character out of those 5 isn't a woman, and he falls under the pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥ queerphobic stereotype of "pretty bisexual evil hedonist", so forgive me if I don't really consider this an enticing option to have a happy-ever-after with.

I'm not going to do a whole song and dance about why representation is important, I'm not going to put the energy into explaining to the game developers and the fandom why, yes, actually, this kind of ♥♥♥♥ is incredibly important to have. I'm just going to ask a simple ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ question:

Did literally any of these ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ characters actually need to be genderlocked for their romance paths? Does Sosiel only being sexually attracted to women actually add anything to the narrative? Does Camellia, a bloodthirsty CE sadist, REALLY need for her partner to have a jawline and some stubble to have an interesting and rewarding romantic arc? If the importance of narrative is so important, why is Queen ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Galfrey progressive enough to not give a ♥♥♥♥ about who she, a literal royal ruling queen, ties her dynasty to?

At the end of the day, this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to anyone who isn't straight, but gay men are especially getting dismissed and ignored in a way that I really cannot stand, and while I'm not the kind of person who's usually "if I can't be gay in a game I won't play it", this is a pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ egregious example, especially coming from a Paizo IP, and that goes far more so when the company is currently under fire for transphobia allegations.

[Prohanya]

Sosiel Gay...

[Big Dogy :)]

Originally posted by Prohanya:

Sosiel Gay...

Well, that's what I get for trusting google results on that front, so that's my own mistake. But the point still stands, I believe.

[Storm]

To post or not to post...

Your point kinda doesn't.

If you're a guy looking for a guy you get 2 options.

If you're a guy looking for a girl you get 4 options

If you're a girl looking for a guy you get 2 options

if you're a girl looking for a girl you get 3 options

I'll leave at that, it's not perfectly even but it seems relatively fair. No offense meant.

And this only applies if my math is correct.

[Mauman]

It's funny.

I'm bisexual and I find the "everybody is bi" nonsense to be extremely offensive.

[SmallGespenst]

honestly it'd be weird if every character was Bi, having the characters actually have sexual preferences goes a way to giving them any amount of depth and agency.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by SmallGespenst:

honestly it'd be weird if every character was Bi, having the characters actually have sexual preferences goes a way to giving them any amount of depth and agency.

EXACTLY.

I also hate how it basically cheapens sexuality in general.

[MagnusGrey]

"Bi people don't exist" is also pretty offensive, so I think they did an ok job of balancing sexual representation with giving every orientation at least a few options.

[Hailspork]

I seduced Sosiel on my first run-through. He's not hetero.

If we look at each game as a vacuum, it's conceivable that the orientation of the bi characters just happens to be towards the MC (eg, Sosiel is hetero if you play a woman, gay if you play a man).

[Mauman]

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

"Bi people don't exist" is also pretty offensive, so I think they did an ok job of balancing sexual representation with giving every orientation at least a few options.

Just so we're clear, I never said that.

Originally posted by Hailspork:

I seduced Sosiel on my first run-through. He's not hetero.

If we look at each game as a vacuum, it's conceivable that the orientation of the bi characters just happens to be towards the MC (eg, Sosiel is hetero if you play a woman, gay if you play a man).

Called player sexual...and also really stupid as it STILL takes agency away from characters. Good writing knows when to take the stick away from you, smack you upside the head with it, and say "NO, this character has opinions contrary to your own. DEAL WITH IT.".

What you suggest is lazy/bad writing.

[Hailspork]

I didn't think NPC's had agency.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Hailspork:

I didn't think NPC's had agency.

You're kidding, right?

So what? Seelah should be ok if you kick a puppy? Regil should be ok if you jump off a cliff stark naked? Lann should be ok with eating Asimar flesh? They should have NO opinions, NO ideas of their own, and NO ability to say otherwise?

[MagnusGrey]

Originally posted by Mauman:

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

"Bi people don't exist" is also pretty offensive, so I think they did an ok job of balancing sexual representation with giving every orientation at least a few options.

Just so we're clear, I never said that.

I wasn't trying to imply that you had, its just another common stereotype about bisexuality. (which is the only reason I said also, sorry if that wasn't clear).

Like I said, I think they did an ok job of finding a middle ground between the various orientations.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

Originally posted by Mauman:

Just so we're clear, I never said that.

I wasn't trying to imply that you had, its just another common stereotype about bisexuality. (which is the only reason I said also, sorry if that wasn't clear).

Like I said, I think they did an ok job of finding a middle ground between the various orientations.

That's ok. I actually agree with you here as I've ran into that problem before. It's really really bad in the so-called LGBT "community".

Based on my personal experience, I have a nagging suspicion that the LGT part would LOVE to throw the B part out.

[Hailspork]

Only what they're pre-programmed to say. From a game perspective, none of them have anything close free will because they're not real people. The writers have agency and can make Seelah respond angrily if you kick a puppy (and I think they did a reasonable job with those interactions)...

I didn't think that was slightly controversial.

Regardless, it's way off topic. If you want to start a new thread about NPC agency, I'll look for it, but not going to post anymore here. I'd rather not derail the main topic more.

[MagnusGrey]

Originally posted by Mauman:

Originally posted by MagnusGrey:

I wasn't trying to imply that you had, its just another common stereotype about bisexuality. (which is the only reason I said also, sorry if that wasn't clear).

Like I said, I think they did an ok job of finding a middle ground between the various orientations.

That's ok. I actually agree with you here as I've ran into that problem before. It's really really bad in the so-called LGBT "community".

Based on my personal experience, I have a nagging suspicion that the LGT part would LOVE to throw the B part out.

Its mostly a generational thing in my experience, but yea it sucks.