Hellknight prestige class? Is it just me or does this class suck?

[Greywolf]

Please no snarky responses, if you think this prestige class is good then please tell me why, I am really struggling to see why anyone would pick this over just further leveling fighter?

[ArchaicReaper]

Първоначално публикувано от Greywolf:

Mostly familiar with D&D but I was under the assumption that devils and demons work the same way in Pathfinder in regards to alignment and considering that the game seems to center around fighting demons it would be a fairly safe bet that you would be fighting a lot of chaotic aligned enemies, however I don't want to make the assumption that we will only be fighting chaotic enemies and that the game wont pull a switcheroo where you end up fighting a different enemy altogether. I generally don't like builds that focus around battling one particular type of enemy and generally prefer something that can hold it's ground against a wider range of enemies.

Your assumption is correct, Demons and Devils work the same here, most Demons are the same you'd see in D&D as a matter of fact, from the lowly Dretch to the mighty Balor. There are times when you don't fight Demons, but given the game takes place in the Worldwound which is a region infected by the Abyss, it's somewhat uncommon. Granted I have not finished the game, but I imagine if a switch were to be made it would be past chapter 5, which is where the game is nearing its end anyway.

[elationtheory]

Първоначално публикувано от dwarner:

Първоначално публикувано от Greywolf:

Please no snarky responses, if you think this prestige class is good then please tell me why, I am really struggling to see why anyone would pick this over just further leveling fighter?

It’s you.

I used to think it did too but at least the example in game very much holds his own.

Lol at the seven people agreeing with nothing specific from anyone. As for Regill the Aura ticks up to +3, is AoE and gives Morale AC. Try to find AoE Morale AC anywhere else in game.

Add to the AoE Insight AC from Inspiring Command (Nobility Domain, which he gets) and voila you just gave your whole team the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Monk splash everyone thinks is obligatory without them having to play the whole game underleveled because of it.

Oh, and it’s +5 to hit and dam instead of -2.

That’s just for starters. I mean do people even read abilities? What are you even doing?

it's not that beneficial tho.

built right, your tank character shouldn't be hit by anything less than a 20 anyway.

your other melee companions would like extra ac, yes, but it's not that crucial since your tank should be taking most of the hits anyway. they're there to eff ♥♥♥♥ up and kill multiple mobs every turn. they can still easily reach 50+ ac, but at that number, the hellknight ac bonus really doesn't do much anyway. they're still gonna get hit by things that can reliably get through 50+ AC in the first place.

the monk splash is something that's built into right from the start especially for the harder difficulties where every point of AC counts (especially for early game), or is taken near the end as gravy for epeen numbers. (woo guys, look at my 100 AC guy!).

hellknight is stuck in this weird position where it's not tanky enough to work as a dedicated tank (cos it's heavy armor based, instead of naked dex) for core+, doesn't really contribute that much damage compared to other front liners, and the benefits it gives looks good on paper, but are kinda redundant in practice.

it could be helpful on normal and below if you're rping and sorely lacking in AC across the board, but that's about it.

[ShivaX]

1-3 levels in it on Reg works out fine, but really Fighter levels are mostly better at the end of the day.

[Ashling]

Първоначално публикувано от dwarner:

Lol at the seven people agreeing with nothing specific from anyone. As for Regill the Aura ticks up to +3, is AoE and gives Morale AC. Try to find AoE Morale AC anywhere else in game.

There's a bard subclass dedicated to it. "Tranquil Whisperer" it grants +4 AC at 17th level and +3 AC at, I think, 11 but might be wrong. I think it also gives bonuses to Will saves and control spells and that the only condition is the other party members have to hear the bard singing. (I, personally, don't think it's a very good sub-class, but I don't like bards to begin with so I'm biased)

[Elnidfse]

Първоначално публикувано от dwarner:

Lol at the seven people agreeing with nothing specific from anyone.

Oh. Alright. Well then to start with an interjection. Inspiring Command is obtained at 13 and is replaced at 17 (if it's not already replaced by a merged Lich) with a spell that lasts minutes instead of rounds. For AC at any rate.

Now for the cons of hellknight:

• Extremely, Low smites per day.
  
• Your smite doesn't work with Aroden's Wrath so no Sacred AC for you.
  
• Regill in particular has poor Wis which makes the DCs for his discipline et all, awful.
  
• You toss weapon training progress for buffs that can be obtained anywhere else.
  
• The spell saves which would be good if a bit lackluster are in a game in which 3 MPs grant flat out immunities for the entire team and also which rupture restraints is a thing.

So then we have the goldclaw aura; Nice early, but at this point morale to AB which has been replaced several times over by any number of morale boosts and a morale based AC bonus to everybody. Neat until you realize that nobody should be anywhere near being attacked besides your frontline, who have great AC regardless.

TL;DR. When you go Hellknight over staying a fighter, you get a few buffs, most of which can be replicated by your caster, a better intimidate (potentially fear due to fearsomness), and 5 less feats. The most you give attackers is that +2 insight. A Paladin at that level is spreading at least a +6 for the entire team 3+ times a day.
On the topic of armiger, one free skill level per level is alright.


As an aside. People don't dip monk solely for the up to potentially substantial +6 AC (greater than +5 by the way). It's done also for the two free feats.

Anyways, It's not untenable but it's also not good. You can fully make Hellknight 10 work in this game with "little" issue. However it's still not good. You pick it to roleplay. The assessment "it sucks" is a correct one when 1-20 single classes can creep all over it's unique features with no extra effort.

[bitb0602]

I would say the Hell knight is Good, since it can make enemy flee while the fighter can't.

When you face big demons in difficulte mode, my hell knight could help a lot by using terror while a pure fighter could only fight to the death.

[chrismyco]

As a general rule in pathfinder all prestige classes are sub optimal by design.

[Frostheim]

Първоначално публикувано от dwarner:

Първоначално публикувано от Greywolf:

Please no snarky responses, if you think this prestige class is good then please tell me why, I am really struggling to see why anyone would pick this over just further leveling fighter?

It’s you.

I used to think it did too but at least the example in game very much holds his own.

Lol at the seven people agreeing with nothing specific from anyone. As for Regill the Aura ticks up to +3, is AoE and gives Morale AC. Try to find AoE Morale AC anywhere else in game.

Add to the AoE Insight AC from Inspiring Command (Nobility Domain, which he gets) and voila you just gave your whole team the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Monk splash everyone thinks is obligatory without them having to play the whole game underleveled because of it.

Oh, and it’s +5 to hit and dam instead of -2.

That’s just for starters. I mean do people even read abilities? What are you even doing?

The Arimiger archetype already gives that Aura, hellknight levels stack for determining its effectiveness but you already get that aura from fighter Armiger. The Nobility aura isn't bad but since its a domain you could just take that on your Cleric with the extra domain mythic ability.

The ability is a full-round action to cast and it only lasts rounds equal to half your hellknight level which is at most going to be 5 rounds. If you go straight fighter armiger instead you get the higher level weapon trainings, improved weapon focus which can turn the +1 (or +2 with mythic focus) into a +2 (or +4 with mythic focus) and thats not even mentioning all the other fighter options you have since they get feats every level.

[S N E E D]

I've played with both Regills and the 19 Armiger/1 HK was way stronger than the 10 Armiger/10 HK. HK is kind of an awful class. It still works but you gimp his fighting potential for some lackluster spells/buffs that your resident Wizard or Cleric can use.

[IlluminaZero]

Travel Domain + Domain Zealot == Swift action teleports. Terrify can also be a great source of AoO particularly with a melee heavy party with Ever Ready... Although Regill is initially poorly equipped for intimidation, as you really want persuade + Strength.

Personally though I prefer Regill on a mount though.

[Whitman1855]

Hellknight tries to balance out Armiger though.

[MjKorz]

It is good, because you can slap it on top of Paladin and enjoy double smite stacking via Aroden's Wrath that turns the Paladin Smite AC bonus from Deflection to Sacred, allowing it to stack with the Hellknight Smite Chaos Deflection bonus. The attack bonus from both smites also stacks.

You can also scale the Discipline DC in the endgame as Aeon by equalizing your Charisma with maxed out Strength via Perfect Form.

[t]

It doesn't "suck" per say. Very few classes suck. Assassin sucks.
It just isnt as powerful as many other classes.