Does a greatsword Paladin make for a powerful frontline warrior?

[e11]

I like fantasy paladins in general, but I don't have the best grasp of the Pathfinder system. On paper, a paladin is the perfect character to lead a war against demons, but how does it actually work out in the game's combat?

[Serendipitous]

chrismyco eredeti hozzászólása:

they didnt change the crit multiplier , they change range. there isnt another singgle weapon in the whole game including top that does x3 on anything other than a natural.

18-20 x3 is broken already, but it also has a d12. i am forced to repeat myself, it is objectively the best weapon period. no exceptions. do you realize with imp crit, or keen paladin power that it becomes 1d12 15-20 x3 on , enlarge person, now we 3d6 15-20 x3 so broken.

If you missed my argument i will repeat it - there is already a martial weapon called falchion that has 18-20/x2. That axe is basically adding a +1 crit multiplier on falchoin. Damage dice literally doesn't matter, a difference between falchion 2d4 and greataxe 1d12 is whooping 1.5 points of damage on average (increased to insane 3.5 damage when enlarged). Most of the damage that is relevant to critical hits comes from enchantment bonuses, strength modifier and power attack and 1.5 damage is unnoticeable when you take those into account since they can reach easily 50+ damage on 2h character. So, there is nothing broken there. The additional damage does not exceed other stuff that is in the game already.

[provokastoras]

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

provokastoras eredeti hozzászólása:

Look if you are looking to min max paladins on damage you should dual wield them possibly with a dex build and finesse training. That is cause paladin's smite applies to all attacks made by the character the more attacks the better. So if you lets say make a dual wielding kukri paladin and start attacking your smited target for 8 attacks its not long for the world assuming they all hit that is 160 points of damage just the smite... especially with outflank and the fact you ll get on average 2 crits, now about reach or not reach is nice you only get 5 attacks max though with haste there are builds mainly Str builds that work better with 2 handers but smiting classes work better with dualwielding. Want to see a properly min maxed paladin like build check the gnome hellknight you get. He gets smite chaos too which does the same thing.

That is true from theoretical perspective. Though in practice you have smaller reach and have to rely on full attacks. And since owlcats con't code to save their life, if you didn't position yourself precisely, you will loose a lot of your attacks after killing one, maybe two enemies, since you can't make 5ft step and continue the full attack on some other victim (something that ToEE had, and that's a game almost 20 years old). Of course if you have one beefy enemy, it's good, but 2h with reach is better against chaff even with lower ceiling damage.

Hm if it makes you enjoy the game more try turn base mode it works almost as well as toee, I think Toee worked a little better but i had my fill of that game a long time ago so I don't remember enough to make a comparison.

[Serendipitous]

provokastoras eredeti hozzászólása:

Hm if it makes you enjoy the game more try turn base mode it works almost as well as toee, I think Toee worked a little better but i had my fill of that game a long time ago so I don't remember enough to make a comparison.

I was already talking about TB in my previous post. And no, it's not even close to ToEE. Honestly if i didn't played that game like dozens of times already, i wouldn't even buy this one.

[IKerensky]

With tabletop mod armored paladin tank is not half that bad. At very last on par with magic armor spell users...

[cookie]

my sorcerer is riding a dragon and letting the smilidon do the lifting - i took his saddle off to lighten him up , the baby dragon and mite are just for show .....entourage of pets

one of the companions is a paladin and my only tank , she rides a mythic horse called tulip and carries a fancy shield and a longsword called radiance ...enemies flee at the sight of her

the stupid witch wants to ride a dinosaur so i got her a statue of one and poof she makes a dinosaur

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

since in that case you actually hit a LOT more often and don't need to turn power attack...almost never.

You won't, because demons mostly have nat armor. Brilliant weapon is sort of a bait in this game.

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

What is so absurdly good in adding +1 crit multiplier to existing martial weapon, i ask again?

As for how much 18-20x3 is better, the answer is.. it depends. 18-20 gives 15% crit, so it's like 13% DPS with x3 weapon. And this goes lower, the more crit multiplier you stack. I think trickster crit builds featuring x5 multiplier with x2 weapon? So it would be like 9% dps increase. It's still quite good.

[chrismyco]

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

chrismyco eredeti hozzászólása:

they didnt change the crit multiplier , they change range. there isnt another singgle weapon in the whole game including top that does x3 on anything other than a natural.

18-20 x3 is broken already, but it also has a d12. i am forced to repeat myself, it is objectively the best weapon period. no exceptions. do you realize with imp crit, or keen paladin power that it becomes 1d12 15-20 x3 on , enlarge person, now we 3d6 15-20 x3 so broken.

If you missed my argument i will repeat it - there is already a martial weapon called falchion that has 18-20/x2. That axe is basically adding a +1 crit multiplier on falchoin. Damage dice literally doesn't matter, a difference between falchion 2d4 and greataxe 1d12 is whooping 1.5 points of damage on average. Most of the damage that is relevant to critical hits comes from enchantment bonuses, strength modifier and power attack and 1.5 damage is unnoticeable when you take those into account since they can reach easily 50+ damage on 2h character. So, there is nothing broken there. The additional damage does not exceed other stuff that is in the game already.

x2 vs x3 is huge at every level. 1d8 vs d12 is huuuuge. they have done the math. for instance a great sword with is only x2 for the vast majority of time will out damage a falchion its only when the bonus are massive greater than that falchion passes the great sword this all came up during the pathfinder playtest a decade ago.


at first level alone with no feats or strength your DPR is double. the axe is 2X good as the falchion which is absurd in a table top game.

[Serendipitous]

Alm eredeti hozzászólása:

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

since in that case you actually hit a LOT more often and don't need to turn power attack...almost never.

You won't, because demons mostly have nat armor. Brilliant weapon is sort of a bait in this game.

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

What is so absurdly good in adding +1 crit multiplier to existing martial weapon, i ask again?

As for how much 18-20x3 is better, the answer is.. it depends. 18-20 gives 15% crit, so it's like 13% DPS with x3 weapon. And this goes lower, the more crit multiplier you stack. I think trickster crit builds featuring x5 multiplier with x2 weapon? So it would be like 9% dps increase. It's still quite good.

They also have regular armor too. So no, i wouldn't call it bait. I don't think there are many that have ONLY natural armor, if we are talking about bosses and semi bosses with high AC. Also, ignoring any concealment, magical or not, is pretty great too.

I am not saying it's bad, i am saying that there is nothing gamebreaking about that. And that i would choose reach over that anyway. Enlarged (or even legendered) + reach you control almost half the actual battlefield, making full attacks happening WAY more often that they would otherwise.

[Serendipitous]

chrismyco eredeti hozzászólása:

x2 vs x3 is huge at every level. 1d8 vs d12 is huuuuge. they have done the math. for instance a great sword with is only x2 for the vast majority of time will out damage a falchion its only when the bonus are massive greater than that falchion passes the great sword this all came up during the pathfinder playtest a decade ago.


at first level alone with no feats or strength your DPR is double. the axe is 2X as good which is absurd in a table top game.

x2 + reach is better than x3. 1d8 vs 1d12 is unnoticeable.

You DON'T GET this weapon at level 1. It is an UNIQUE weapon that you get when you are already level 10 or something. By that time difference in 3.5 damage is not something you really notice. And even at level 1 you have str bonus, unless you compare two 10 str peasants going at each other, in which case your calculations have no bearing on actual gameplay.

And who are "they" who supposedly "done the math"? Can you show me that math that would account for strength, enchantment and power attack damage that you would have at level 10-12 that would show that "1d8 vs d12 is huuuuge"? Especially if we consider alternative weapons and their abilities available.

You, my friend, are definitely not 18-20, not even 19-20 dagger in the drawer.

[Edstyles]

Dont like paladin . Has too few feats for a martial class :p . I like cavalier gendarme . Lots of feats looks like a paladin with no buffs but lots of feats and a shiny horse from the get go.

[chrismyco]

Edstyles eredeti hozzászólása:

Dont like paladin . Has too few feats for a martial class :p . I like cavalier gendarme . Lots of feats looks like a paladin with no buffs .

this is one of the beniefts of going two handed. you take power attack and you are all good.

there is just enough feats to be a really good sword and board paladin.

I tried mounted for a while, but the buggy ness got on my nerves. charge is buggy on a mount. when your mount gets paralyzed it can get buggy. if they fix it, i can see being mounted being fun and viable

[Edstyles]

Mhm i dont play turn based cause its Mega bad. So charge is fine for me. Some annoyances but charge is fine in action

[Fistimus Maximus]

provokastoras eredeti hozzászólása:

e11 eredeti hozzászólása:

Baldur's Gate 2's Carsomyr the Holy Avenger two-handed sword will forever be the love of my life..

Hm you know the game gives you a holy avenger sword better than carsomyr in the maze (first dungeon) but it is not a greatsword it is a longsword. (it looks pretty insignificant when you get it but it becomes a +7 holy avenger that gives you Spell resistance and dispels actually depending on your mythic path its almost spell immunity not spell resistance. Spell resistance 45 there is like 2 or three things in the game bypassing it.

that sword was easy mode against those op liches in bg 2.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't think there are many that have ONLY natural armor,

Name one that has armor. I dare you.

[Serendipitous]

Alm eredeti hozzászólása:

carashi eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't think there are many that have ONLY natural armor,

Name one that has armor. I dare you.

Well, i didn't write them down, but i often checked the combat log against bosses and often there was something like (-X Finnean) under the decomposition of enemy's AC. So it definitely worked on something, which was all i needed.