Snowball

[EQFL_Sapare]

Going to be real petty but why not. What was the logic behind using the more powerful version of the Snowball spell in the game?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/snowball/

From what i am finding online, people always said it was broken and the evocation version was made in direct response to make the spell balanced. So why did a game made in 2022 use the original version of the spell, twice.(its in kingmaker too)

It doesnt matter because of scaling, but lets take a moment to just laugh at how stupidly good this spell is, it does everything shocking grasp does, plus staggering, plus being range, plus being in a better school. Plus not being subject to SR, wew.

[fastello]

I reported this in the first game. It's just another thing they don't fix.

[Soul]

i dont know what the complaint is.... I mean I only know of pathfinder through this game and thus the version of snowball is the only one I know.... dunno where the evocation one your talking about is...

[EQFL_Sapare]

Originally posted by Soul:

i dont know what the complaint is.... I mean I only know of pathfinder through this game and thus the version of snowball is the only one I know.... dunno where the evocation one your talking about is...

There is a first post, if you look at it, there is a link, if you click it, it takes you to a webside, if you read the webside there are words on it, if you understand the words, you see the two versions of the spell.

TLDR: Link, click it.

[Soul]

Originally posted by EQFL_Sapare:

Originally posted by Soul:

i dont know what the complaint is.... I mean I only know of pathfinder through this game and thus the version of snowball is the only one I know.... dunno where the evocation one your talking about is...

There is a first post, if you look at it, there is a link, if you click it, it takes you to a webside, if you read the webside there are words on it, if you understand the words, you see the two versions of the spell.

TLDR: Link, click it.

I rarely click links to other sites... but looked it up myself and didnt see it... double checked and yeah there was 2... just read the first one only and didnt notice the second...

though... im not sure snowball should be considered an evocation spell... afterall your casting a spell that is creating a physical object.... evocation from my understanding is just raw magical energy with no physical forms.... unless the evocation version I guess isnt a physical snowball since it has no fort save for stun but has spell resistance...

[Uzkin]

The melee touch spells are generally too weak compared to the ranged ones in Pathfinder ruleset (Paizo).

However, most level 1 ranged spells (Snowball, Magic Missile, Ear-Piercing Scream) are very well balanced against *each other*, Snowball is NOT an outlier.

Snowball: 17.5 damage, ignores SR, staggers, close range, affected by cold resistance, requires ranged touch attack

Magic Missile: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, medium range, not affected by elemental resistances, always hits

Ear-Piercing Scream: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, applies daze, close range, not affected by common elemental resistances, no attack roll required but save halves dmg.

All do the same dmg, and all have their pros and cons w.r.t. each other.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The melee touch spells are generally too weak compared to the ranged ones in Pathfinder ruleset (Paizo).

However, most level 1 ranged spells (Snowball, Magic Missile, Ear-Piercing Scream) are very well balanced against *each other*, Snowball is NOT an outlier.

Snowball: 17.5 damage, ignores SR, staggers, close range, affected by cold resistance, requires ranged touch attack

Magic Missile: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, medium range, not affected by elemental resistances, always hits

Ear-Piercing Scream: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, applies daze, close range, not affected by common elemental resistances, no attack roll required but save halves dmg.

All do the same dmg, and all have their pros and cons w.r.t. each other.

though you can kinda do more with snowball.... convert it to an elemental type and matching dragonic bloodline along with gloves of the neophyte and ascendant element of the dragon bloodline and your dealing 5d6 + 10 damage.... bypassing elemental resistances with ascendant element.... so full damage with fort save for stun effect... so with something like bolstered added on top of that....

snowball... by level 5 it can do...
5d6 + 1 per die gloves + 1 per die dragonic bloodline + 2 per die bolstered... = 25- 50 damage with no spell resistance check... and ascendant element would bypass elemental resistances...

magic missile... by level 5 can do... 3 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 3... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 15- 24 damage with a spell resistance check...

magic missile... by level 7 can do... 4 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 4... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 20- 32 damage with a spell resistance check...

magic missile... by level 9 can do... 5 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 5... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 25- 40 damage with a spell resistance check...

[pete3great]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The melee touch spells are generally too weak compared to the ranged ones in Pathfinder ruleset (Paizo).

However, most level 1 ranged spells (Snowball, Magic Missile, Ear-Piercing Scream) are very well balanced against *each other*, Snowball is NOT an outlier.

Snowball: 17.5 damage, ignores SR, staggers, close range, affected by cold resistance, requires ranged touch attack

Magic Missile: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, medium range, not affected by elemental resistances, always hits

Ear-Piercing Scream: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, applies daze, close range, not affected by common elemental resistances, no attack roll required but save halves dmg.

All do the same dmg, and all have their pros and cons w.r.t. each other.

though you can kinda do more with snowball.... convert it to an elemental type and matching dragonic bloodline along with gloves of the neophyte and ascendant element of the dragon bloodline and your dealing 5d6 + 10 damage.... bypassing elemental resistances with ascendant element.... so full damage with fort save for stun effect... so with something like bolstered added on top of that....

snowball... by level 5 it can do...
5d6 + 1 per die gloves + 1 per die dragonic bloodline + 2 per die bolstered... = 25- 50 damage with no spell resistance check... and ascendant element would bypass elemental resistances...

magic missile... by level 5 can do... 3 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 3... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 15- 24 damage with a spell resistance check...

magic missile... by level 7 can do... 4 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 4... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 20- 32 damage with a spell resistance check...

magic missile... by level 9 can do... 5 missiles so...
(1d4 + 1) * 5... + 1 per die gloves + 2 per die bolstered... = 25- 40 damage with a spell resistance check...

You don't have to aim magic missile. Again, they both have advantages and disadvantages. There's a lot of weird unbalanced stuff in the the game. This isn't it.

[canuck250]

snow ball by level 5:
Needs accuracy feats to be effective. Range touch attacks are nice but again needs extra feats so early game it is harder to get everything online. Magic missile is online as soon as you get it with no feats. That ice ball is does nice damage and it also can easily do 0 damage because it missed.

[Soul]

Originally posted by canuck250:

snow ball by level 5:
Needs accuracy feats to be effective. Range touch attacks are nice but again needs extra feats so early game it is harder to get everything online. Magic missile is online as soon as you get it with no feats. That ice ball is does nice damage and it also can easily do 0 damage because it missed.

true... though my build I have point blank shot and precise shot by time I hit level 3 so.... the snowball thing isnt so bad.... as for magic missile early game I dont take spell penetration feats so its harder to hit against those with spell resistance... so snowball ends up becoming my jack of all trades till I get comfortable with spell penetration down the road...

[canuck250]

Originally posted by Soul:

spell penetration down the road...

Right, so you take 2 feats early to enable 1 spell then have to wait to enable others. Where skipping those 2 feats enables others sooner. It all depends on what you want your caster to do which is better. If you do not plan on being a range touch blaster caster, those 2 feats early will slow down your mid game.

So in early mid game, I do not think anything can touch an enchantment best jokes caster. If your snowball is one shotting the enemy, a martial user probably could have done it just as easy and thus for free. But vs harder to kill enemies 1 snowball of dps does not stop it, 1 joke does.

I think that is what makes casters in PF so hard but interesting, they have very defined lows and highs. There are many trade offs and ways you can focus them making different parts of the game harder/easier. Depending on your party and strats, there is a good place for any type of caster.

[Soul]

Originally posted by canuck250:

Originally posted by Soul:

spell penetration down the road...

Right, so you take 2 feats early to enable 1 spell then have to wait to enable others. Where skipping those 2 feats enables others sooner. It all depends on what you want your caster to do which is better. If you do not plan on being a range touch blaster caster, those 2 feats early will slow down your mid game.

So in early mid game, I do not think anything can touch an enchantment best jokes caster. If your snowball is one shotting the enemy, a martial user probably could have done it just as easy and thus for free. But vs harder to kill enemies 1 snowball of dps does not stop it, 1 joke does.

I think that is what makes casters in PF so hard but interesting, they have very defined lows and highs. There are many trade offs and ways you can focus them making different parts of the game harder/easier. Depending on your party and strats, there is a good place for any type of caster.

I mean for my playstyle it works.... im not saying mine is the best or anything... but my first 5 levels I take selective metamagic, point blank shot, precise shot, and bolster metamagic.... it helps me in early game with crossbow, crowd control, and spells like cantrips and snowball early game... I just dont like to rest often lol... dont rest during gray garrison.... only rest once in lost chapel... and only rest 2 times during whole drezen thing...

as for best jokes... I remember hearing about it being good and bad.... Ive thought about trying to make a build focused on both evocation and enchantment..... how would you rate best jokes compared to other cc?....

[canuck250]

Originally posted by Soul:

I mean for my playstyle it works....

I do apologise as I make it sound like I am poo pooing the idea. More what I was trying to do was long wind show how certain spells can shine at certain points if built for it. So def for your playstyle and others it works great! Especially because only for unfair do you need to min max and you don't have to do it to extremes.

Enchantment and best jokes just comes online early and can boosted easier (like the fey bloodline and items) so that it can be effective at all difficulties. All CC is good, like grease early game is still one of the best but you can still make jokes have higher DC. I highly rate CC in all games but PF is funkier then most. Like a really strong martial team only needs to inflict something to hit flat foot ac, if even that. Anything that make an enemy go prone is basically instant death but still a bonus and not needed but that is also because you def want a trip pet or two.

There are just so many different playstyles which mine does not cover so I am sure there are ways to make some CC shine more then I can think of. But I am also a dirty kineticist lover so if you want the best cc, just go deadly earth, it is a cheat cc as it just kills things. If you want a in game cheat code at level 12... Have 4 kines and 2 blockers for a party. There are some enemies that are immune to trip so you need a couple blockers to stop them... But 4 DE cast at the same time on top of something is just death. Then at level 14 you can drop clouds on top of those.... So ya, that is the best CC in the game imo :)

[Soul]

Originally posted by canuck250:

Originally posted by Soul:

I mean for my playstyle it works....

I do apologise as I make it sound like I am poo pooing the idea. More what I was trying to do was long wind show how certain spells can shine at certain points if built for it. So def for your playstyle and others it works great! Especially because only for unfair do you need to min max and you don't have to do it to extremes.

Enchantment and best jokes just comes online early and can boosted easier (like the fey bloodline and items) so that it can be effective at all difficulties. All CC is good, like grease early game is still one of the best but you can still make jokes have higher DC. I highly rate CC in all games but PF is funkier then most. Like a really strong martial team only needs to inflict something to hit flat foot ac, if even that. Anything that make an enemy go prone is basically instant death but still a bonus and not needed but that is also because you def want a trip pet or two.

There are just so many different playstyles which mine does not cover so I am sure there are ways to make some CC shine more then I can think of. But I am also a dirty kineticist lover so if you want the best cc, just go deadly earth, it is a cheat cc as it just kills things. If you want a in game cheat code at level 12... Have 4 kines and 2 blockers for a party. There are some enemies that are immune to trip so you need a couple blockers to stop them... But 4 DE cast at the same time on top of something is just death. Then at level 14 you can drop clouds on top of those.... So ya, that is the best CC in the game imo :)

yeah I play on normal mode... and it does decent for me... I mean earlier game I managed to first turn 2 shot the lich in lost chapel with snowball and metamagic rods... one of em ended up critting though so... it was due to luck in that case... and I do have an actual 2 hit insta death combo if they both connect... icy prison + wracking ray = instant death... but only if the icy prison inflicts paralyzed... wracking ray will kill a paralyzed enemy...

[EQFL_Sapare]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The melee touch spells are generally too weak compared to the ranged ones in Pathfinder ruleset (Paizo).

However, most level 1 ranged spells (Snowball, Magic Missile, Ear-Piercing Scream) are very well balanced against *each other*, Snowball is NOT an outlier.

Snowball: 17.5 damage, ignores SR, staggers, close range, affected by cold resistance, requires ranged touch attack

Magic Missile: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, medium range, not affected by elemental resistances, always hits

Ear-Piercing Scream: 17.5 damage, affected by SR, applies daze, close range, not affected by common elemental resistances, no attack roll required but save halves dmg.

All do the same dmg, and all have their pros and cons w.r.t. each other.

Its somewhat perspective but I do think you are obscuring the numbers. Snowball hits that dmg at level 5. Ear piercing at level 10 and MM at 9. By those levels the VS balance is pretty moot as you wont be depending on any of these spells anymore.

Though it does depend on build, if you low dex the touch attack limitation of course is a problem. However, you going to have to balance that against the possibility of a fort safe, Ear piercing does next to nothing on a safe, where snowball is pretty unaffected.

The talk isn't really so much if Snowball is balanced or not, that decision was made a decade ago by Paizo itself, and they thought it made sense to redo it. The game use game uses the Unchained classes so obviously devs thought it made sense to use the erratas. So its simply strange by omission here.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by EQFL_Sapare:

Its somewhat perspective but I do think you are obscuring the numbers. Snowball hits that dmg at level 5. Ear piercing at level 10 and MM at 9. By those levels the VS balance is pretty moot as you wont be depending on any of these spells anymore.

Though it does depend on build, if you low dex the touch attack limitation of course is a problem. However, you going to have to balance that against the possibility of a fort safe, Ear piercing does next to nothing on a safe, where snowball is pretty unaffected.

The talk isn't really so much if Snowball is balanced or not, that decision was made a decade ago by Paizo itself, and they thought it made sense to redo it. The game use game uses the Unchained classes so obviously devs thought it made sense to use the erratas. So its simply strange by omission here.

The devs were free to decide which version to use. This campaign is against demons, most of who have something like DR10 vs. cold - while having no DR vs. sonic or force. Snowball that bypasses SR is quite well balanced vs. the other lvl 1 ranged dmg spells in this campaign.