BFT Combat Viability

[Destroyner]

I'm trying to think of a way to have a BFT that is more than just a buffbot/dispeller and brings some level of combat capability. I know that their BAB is trash and that they will never be a top contender for damage, but so far I haven't been able to find a way to make them feel like more than dead weight outside of buffs. I will post my attempted builds and the issues with each below.

BFT/EK - I did this on my last run and focused on STR with death's consonant and was very disappointed. Even with the improved BAB progression from EK they only had 2 attacks and low hit chance. Performed decently with dragonshape 3 but left much to be desired.

The rest of these are ones that I messed around with respeccing last night and found issues with each.

Rowdy1/BFT9/Arcane Trickster or EK with some loremaster - very strong early game with crossbow and high dex but falls off hard mid game. Arcane trickster doesn't provide enough BAB to allow them to hit, EK provides nice boosts but the extra feats weren't that useful for vital strike build, and taking loremaster for greater vital strike (impossible to attain high enough BAB otherwise) removes the rowdy bonus to sneak damage for some reason. At level 12 with a greater vital strike (and hurricane bow) I'm only averaging 40/50 damage per hit which is abysmal.

Knife master 1/BFT 9/same choices above - the thought behind this was focusing more on dual wield/crit focus that would carry over to dragonform but the BAB progression is too slow to keep up with the dual wield feat requirements. Upon writing this I realize the knife master sneak attack modifier would nerf dragonform sneaks.

I still think that between EK/AT/loremaster there is some way to make this work but I don't know enough about all the classes in this game to have found an optimal solution. Has anyone found something that works for them or is everyone that brings a BFT content with letting them be a buffbot?

[Moo]

The problem with multi classing BFT is you lose out on some of their their unique class abilities. So you end up with a run of the mill caster that can't really cast very many spells and also can't fight very well.

[Yannir]

I know you have that Skald lurking in your group but I really wouldn't try to make BFT into a melee anyway. Their BAB will always be terrible because they have to take too many levels of BFT to unlock the perk that you want the BFT for in the first place.

What do you Spell focus on?
I'd advise going Spell focus Conjuration and Spell focus Transmutation with the Greaters and Mythics as well, then Expanded Arsenal into Abjuration and Evocation. Get the Evo 1st, you don't really need the dispels of Abj before Act 4. Abundant Casting is kinda meh on an Arcanist so I'd advise skipping that. Enduring Spells you'll need. Favorite Metamagic Selective is a great choice.

I'll get back to you later for more. Gotta skip for now.

[kodama]

Originally posted by Yannir:

I know you have that Skald lurking in your group but I really wouldn't try to make BFT into a melee anyway. Their BAB will always be terrible because they have to take too many levels of BFT to unlock the perk that you want the BFT for in the first place.

What do you Spell focus on?
I'd advise going Spell focus Conjuration and Spell focus Transmutation with the Greaters and Mythics as well, then Expanded Arsenal into Abjuration and Evocation. Get the Evo 1st, you don't really need the dispels of Abj before Act 4. Abundant Casting is kinda meh on an Arcanist so I'd advise skipping that. Enduring Spells you'll need. Favorite Metamagic Selective is a great choice.

I'll get back to you later for more. Gotta skip for now.

Why would you expand Abjuration? Dispel Magic doesn't care about anything but your caster level (which does not increase via SF boni/Expanded Arsenal) + d20 roll. The only useful feats for Dispel are Spell Spec ( +2 CLs) and School Mastery Mythic Feat (+ 1 CL). You can't take Spell Spec in expanded school.

This is why no dispeller in this game can hold a candle to merged Angel/Lich.

[Destroyner]

@jeem1972
While this is true, the only level milestones for BFT that matter (in my opinion) are 9 and 20. I will possibly respec to full BFT at 20 but in the meantime that opens up a lot of flexibility since 10-19 don't offer anything of value.

@Yannir
Hah you have good memory. You're right about me wanting to try to synergize with my skald. Just unlocked the group-wide pounce last night and it makes my surprise rounds devastating. Anyway, I was actually thinking about the spell focus lines as well. I think evocation would be a good choice for sirocco and icy prison, especially since I already have nenio covering enchanting/illusion. I'll have to look more into conjuration since off the top of my head they are primarily pit spells which doesn't mesh well with my melee heavy team even with selective. I was planning to do what you said about abjuration but I don't think it will actually provide benefit to dispels since it raises DC and dispels are purely spell level.
The transmutation spells outside of buffs looked lackluster but admittedly I only gave them a cursory glance so I'll give them another view tonight.

A concern with investing in spell focus feats is that since buffing is my primary reason for bringing the BFT in the first place, I will have a limited capacity for CC spells after all my buffs have gone out since I can only slot like 1-3 spells at higher levels. It seems like all spell slots must be dedicated to buffs to maximize the team benefit for a BFT which is why I'm trying to force it into some type of martial lol.

[Immortal Reaver]

If you are using Arcane Trickster then use cantrips like Acid Splash to hit more often than with crossbow.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Destroyner:

@jeem1972
While this is true, the only level milestones for BFT that matter (in my opinion) are 9 and 20. I will possibly respec to full BFT at 20 but in the meantime that opens up a lot of flexibility since 10-19 don't offer anything of value.

@Yannir
Hah you have good memory. You're right about me wanting to try to synergize with my skald. Just unlocked the group-wide pounce last night and it makes my surprise rounds devastating. Anyway, I was actually thinking about the spell focus lines as well. I think evocation would be a good choice for sirocco and icy prison, especially since I already have nenio covering enchanting/illusion. I'll have to look more into conjuration since off the top of my head they are primarily pit spells which doesn't mesh well with my melee heavy team even with selective. I was planning to do what you said about abjuration but I don't think it will actually provide benefit to dispels since it raises DC and dispels are purely spell level.
The transmutation spells outside of buffs looked lackluster but admittedly I only gave them a cursory glance so I'll give them another view tonight.

A concern with investing in spell focus feats is that since buffing is my primary reason for bringing the BFT in the first place, I will have a limited capacity for CC spells after all my buffs have gone out since I can only slot like 1-3 spells at higher levels. It seems like all spell slots must be dedicated to buffs to maximize the team benefit for a BFT which is why I'm trying to force it into some type of martial lol.

@Kodama as well. You're absolutely right, I didn't actually remember dispels only have a CL check and didn't bother/have time for checking. Arcanist is absolutely the right choice for a dispeller, though, with its Potent Magic exploit. So, no Expanded Arsenal Abjuration but I stand by the rest of my earlier comment.

SF Conjuration is useful in the early game for Grease, and later for spells like Acid Fog/Acidic Spray/Clashing Rocks, and it is intended as a base to build Expanded Arsenal on. But since you're already past its most useful part of the game, you could pick something else too, I suppose. Necromancy, Illusion and Enchantment have a lot of DC based spells so you could do those too but you're primarily aiming to make Evocation stronger via Expanded Arsenal, compounding the SF into it. Basically, whatever SF you get doesn't have to be directly useful, other than the first one you get at low levels, as you're just feeding Evo with it. SF Transmutation is basically meant for Obsidian Flow/Baleful Polymorph/Disintegrate/Polar Midnight, and to compound into EA.

You would be kinda already splitting your BFT three ways with Transmutation buffs, Abjuration dispels and Evocation damage. So I wouldn't fret too much on the usefulness of whatever other SF you pick since you're rather unlikely to use any other school over those three. Due to the limited amount of spell slots, as you noted. And as you're mostly concerned over CC, Evo does both CC(Ice Prison, Scirocco, sonic spells) and damage. Necromancy's primary CC type is fear which is bad with a melee heavy party, and Nenio is already covering the other 2, Enchantment and Illusion.

Which is why I think you should stay pure BFT, or possibly dip into Loremaster, or even Signifer if you're feeling meme-y. Arcane Trickster doesn't really bring anything if you aren't using Touch spells. By the time you'd want to dip into it, you're already at a point where you'll likely never use a Cantrip or a crossbow again. You'll lose DC and CL by dipping EK or DD, and melee is a poor option anyway as discussed.

[Moo]

Originally posted by Destroyner:

@jeem1972
While this is true, the only level milestones for BFT that matter (in my opinion) are 9 and 20. I will possibly respec to full BFT at 20 but in the meantime that opens up a lot of flexibility since 10-19 don't offer anything of value.

If you are taking only 9 levels of BFT, then you are only gaining a +2 to ability scores (which aren't any better than +6 belts) in spells and share transmutations out of the BFT. If that's all you are getting then I think Incense Synthesizer would be a better option.

[Destroyner]

@jeem1972
Hmm. I think we are either talking past each other or I am not understanding what you're saying. Your initial point was "The problem with multi classing BFT is you lose out on some of their their unique class abilities." My counter to that is that the only unique class abilities are at level 3, 9, and 20. So from a unique ability standpoint, there is no difference in taking 9 levels or 19 levels. Due to the additional 10 levels not providing any unique value, I think it would be more beneficial to multiclass until a probable respec at level 20 to access their +4 stat bonus. That way they are still providing something to the team outside of the +2 extra stats during all of act 3 and 4.

I'm on the fence about the second thing you bring up. While you're right about a belt being able to provide some of the same benefits, getting a belt with +6 to str/dex/con won't happen until like act 5 and my team also benefits from wisdom/int. Outside of the stat bonuses and transmutation sharing, the BFT does have little team utility so the synthesizer may be overall better. As of now the BFT provides an additional 11 AC to my KC which is pretty big, but I'm not sure what all the synthesizer provides that may end up being more of a benefit. I'll have to look into it more to see if the abilities that actually work are more of a boon. I think I'll try respeccing to synthesizer for a level or two to compare the two. I appreciate the feedback.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by Destroyner:

BFT/EK - I did this on my last run and focused on STR with death's consonant and was very disappointed. Even with the improved BAB progression from EK they only had 2 attacks and low hit chance. Performed decently with dragonshape 3 but left much to be desired.

What race were you? Kitsune master shapeshifter will give you a nice stat boost early on. Then a vivi dip might be needed for extra stat boost.

But the # of attacks shouldn't matter as much as AoO should be a big part of the dps and spell casting. Your a 2nd liner with reach, extra bonus with the lunge feat, casting grease and other strong spells. Then your frontliners are the multi attackers who will proc AoO as well as things tripped standing up from your grease. If you had 1 or 2 wolf riders (both daeran and cam[she is late game tho] are good for this) with dual rapiers, this would reallly boost AoO opportunities. Your BFT then gets to output melee dps for free while spending their turn casting spells. Since you are low attack per round, prob better just to use cleave for attacking if you want on your turn, like in trash fights.

[Moo]

Originally posted by Destroyner:

@jeem1972
Hmm. I think we are either talking past each other or I am not understanding what you're saying. Your initial point was "The problem with multi classing BFT is you lose out on some of their their unique class abilities." My counter to that is that the only unique class abilities are at level 3, 9, and 20. So from a unique ability standpoint, there is no difference in taking 9 levels or 19 levels. Due to the additional 10 levels not providing any unique value, I think it would be more beneficial to multiclass until a probable respec at level 20 to access their +4 stat bonus. That way they are still providing something to the team outside of the +2 extra stats during all of act 3 and 4.

I'm on the fence about the second thing you bring up. While you're right about a belt being able to provide some of the same benefits, getting a belt with +6 to str/dex/con won't happen until like act 5 and my team also benefits from wisdom/int. Outside of the stat bonuses and transmutation sharing, the BFT does have little team utility so the synthesizer may be overall better. As of now the BFT provides an additional 11 AC to my KC which is pretty big, but I'm not sure what all the synthesizer provides that may end up being more of a benefit. I'll have to look into it more to see if the abilities that actually work are more of a boon. I think I'll try respeccing to synthesizer for a level or two to compare the two. I appreciate the feedback.

I guess I misunderstood your intention of temporarily multi-classing BFT until you reach level 20, and then respec to pure level 20 BFT, I originally thought you were trying to build a BFT/EK combo class. The Incense Synthesizer comment was more of another option of a support class that has some combat viability compared to a BFT/EK combo.