Mirror Image question

[dataseer21]

So I have played the game a lot. But I don't seem to remember that clearly. Does blind fighting feats make it so that you don't have to worry about mirror image anymore? I know the spell true seeing works against it. I just want to double check before I make a build with it later on or something. I know that it works on the percent chance to miss like displacement provides.

[Razer]

No to completely pass through you need either Blindsight (from the Echolocation spell) or True seeing. Blindfight allows you a single reroll if you miss an invisible or concealed creature, but it doesn't negate it. Mirror image conjures illusions and Blindfight or Blindsense do not pierce illusions. So you need Echolocation (So Blindsight) or True Seeing and the like.

In this game blind fighting is not very good. It's useful vs invisible enemies of which there are exceptionally few and with the abundance of high level piercing spells you don't need to waste feats on Blindfight either. Just cast True Seeing and you're golden. True Seeing completely negates Mirror Image and Displacement effects.

[faolanthehedgehog]

In this game no, but in tabletop? Fun fact: I was able to cheese my way to bypass a mirror image spell. Blind-Fight feat to roll twice on miss chances, and I just had my character close his eyes. Because blinded attackers are unaffected by mirror image.

[Keeptrucking]

Originally posted by faolanthehedgehog:

In this game no, but in tabletop? Fun fact: I was able to cheese my way to bypass a mirror image spell. Blind-Fight feat to roll twice on miss chances, and I just had my character close his eyes. Because blinded attackers are unaffected by mirror image.

lul

Now I havent tested this, but it seems like blind fight 1 is just straight up bugged and useless. Blind fight 3 seems to be usefull in the very last fight.

[erian]

Actually blindfight is rather usefull in this game for melee fighters, especially primary and secondary tanks. There are quite few enemies with non-illusional concealment(and/or immuity to true-seeing), so this free reroll is noticable

[Razer]

Originally posted by erian:

Actually blindfight is rather usefull in this game for melee fighters, especially primary and secondary tanks. There are quite few enemies with non-illusional concealment(and/or immuity to true-seeing), so this free reroll is noticable

That's why you use echolocation on top of true seeing. No trying to hit twice. You just hit them on the first try. This is also why Vivisectionist and Brown Fur Transmuter are so good in a party. After getting both echolocation and true seeing there's no enemy that can withstand your attacks. No need to pick the blind fighting feats. I mean if you have room sure. Even then, on my legend fighter/slayer build I didn't pick it either. More important feats to pick still.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by faolanthehedgehog:

In this game no, but in tabletop? Fun fact: I was able to cheese my way to bypass a mirror image spell. Blind-Fight feat to roll twice on miss chances, and I just had my character close his eyes. Because blinded attackers are unaffected by mirror image.

I think I really POed my GM when I started doing this with my polearm fighter.

[Razer]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by faolanthehedgehog:

In this game no, but in tabletop? Fun fact: I was able to cheese my way to bypass a mirror image spell. Blind-Fight feat to roll twice on miss chances, and I just had my character close his eyes. Because blinded attackers are unaffected by mirror image.

I think I really POed my GM when I started doing this with my polearm fighter.

If you close your eyes then you have a 50% miss chance by default even if the enemy isn't concealed. Blind Fighting will allow a second roll on that. So vs mirror image, it may actually be detrimental. You may get lucky, or you may spend 6 rounds swinging into nothing. Blind Fight isn't a good feat if you have spells to circumvent the illusions and concealment altogether. I personally wouldn't close my characters eyes vs mirror images enemies. 50% miss chance is huge even with a reroll.

If your GM allows you to close your eyes and forego the 50% miss chance of closing your eyes due to blind fight then they're not following the rules correctly.

[erian]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by erian:

Actually blindfight is rather usefull in this game for melee fighters, especially primary and secondary tanks. There are quite few enemies with non-illusional concealment(and/or immuity to true-seeing), so this free reroll is noticable

That's why you use echolocation on top of true seeing. No trying to hit twice. You just hit them on the first try. This is also why Vivisectionist and Brown Fur Transmuter are so good in a party. After getting both echolocation and true seeing there's no enemy that can withstand your attacks. No need to pick the blind fighting feats. I mean if you have room sure. Even then, on my legend fighter/slayer build I didn't pick it either. More important feats to pick still.

And if you dont have those 2? There are hundreds of classes and those 2 are far from mandatory.

[Razer]

Originally posted by erian:

Originally posted by Razer:

That's why you use echolocation on top of true seeing. No trying to hit twice. You just hit them on the first try. This is also why Vivisectionist and Brown Fur Transmuter are so good in a party. After getting both echolocation and true seeing there's no enemy that can withstand your attacks. No need to pick the blind fighting feats. I mean if you have room sure. Even then, on my legend fighter/slayer build I didn't pick it either. More important feats to pick still.

And if you dont have those 2? There are hundreds of classes and those 2 are far from mandatory.

Any divine caster gets True Seeing communal. I don't see the issue. Lot's of classes can get echolocation. And you can also make potions of them to use in a pinch vs a boss or some such. Of course the classes I mentioned aren't mandatory. People can do whatever they want, but blind fight is just a wasted feat slot if you have a divine caster that can cast true seeing. And the handful of enemies immune to true seeing are so small a potion or scroll of echolocation is 10x more valuable than having a feat spent on a character that has no need of this feat 99% of the cases.

I used to pick this feat at the start, since it's good on tabletop and it's good in other DnD RPG games, but in this game I stopped picking it because there's better ways to deal with concealment and mirror image.

You also have 6 characters in your party right? Plenty of room to add something that can take care of concealment and the like.

Heck, you can add an inciter skald with a focus on dispel and take dispelling strike at level 14. They have echolocation, can hit hard with bows too. Hit enemies and bosses and auto dispell the concealment and such for you. Profit :D

[erian]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by erian:

And if you dont have those 2? There are hundreds of classes and those 2 are far from mandatory.

Any divine caster gets True Seeing communal. I don't see the issue. Lot's of classes can get echolocation. And you can also make potions of them to use in a pinch vs a boss or some such. Of course the classes I mentioned aren't mandatory. People can do whatever they want, but blind fight is just a wasted feat slot if you have a divine caster that can cast true seeing. And the handful of enemies immune to true seeing are so small a potion or scroll of echolocation is 10x more valuable than having a feat spent on a character that has no need of this feat 99% of the cases.

I used to pick this feat at the start, since it's good on tabletop and it's good in other DnD RPG games, but in this game I stopped picking it because there's better ways to deal with concealment and mirror image.

You also have 6 characters in your party right? Plenty of room to add something that can take care of concealment and the like.

Heck, you can add an inciter skald with a focus on dispel and take dispelling strike at level 14. They have echolocation, can hit hard with bows too. Hit enemies and bosses and auto dispell the concealment and such for you. Profit :D

I am talking about those instances when true sight is not aplicable. There quite few monsters with non illusional concealment(so true sight does absolutely nothing), there are also a lot of monsters(especially in two last acts) that has mind blank which also negate true seeing(thou you can dispell it, its also annoying to do that if there is more than 1 such mob).

[Razer]

Originally posted by erian:

Originally posted by Razer:

Any divine caster gets True Seeing communal. I don't see the issue. Lot's of classes can get echolocation. And you can also make potions of them to use in a pinch vs a boss or some such. Of course the classes I mentioned aren't mandatory. People can do whatever they want, but blind fight is just a wasted feat slot if you have a divine caster that can cast true seeing. And the handful of enemies immune to true seeing are so small a potion or scroll of echolocation is 10x more valuable than having a feat spent on a character that has no need of this feat 99% of the cases.

I used to pick this feat at the start, since it's good on tabletop and it's good in other DnD RPG games, but in this game I stopped picking it because there's better ways to deal with concealment and mirror image.

You also have 6 characters in your party right? Plenty of room to add something that can take care of concealment and the like.

Heck, you can add an inciter skald with a focus on dispel and take dispelling strike at level 14. They have echolocation, can hit hard with bows too. Hit enemies and bosses and auto dispell the concealment and such for you. Profit :D

I am talking about those instances when true sight is not aplicable. There quite few monsters with non illusional concealment(so true sight does absolutely nothing), there are also a lot of monsters(especially in two last acts) that has mind blank which also negate true seeing(thou you can dispell it, its also annoying to do that if there is more than 1 such mob).

Honestly there's not many enemies like that and like I said before that's nothing a potion or scroll of echolocation doesn't fix. Echolocation also has a duration of 10 minutes per level which you can craft and has 9 caster levels so 1.5 hours duration. Rangers, Bards, Skalds, Arcane casters get this spell. I don't know what boss has this requirement, but you can always pop a potion before the battle if you really need it. Honestly you're making a big deal out of something that's not really an issue. True Seeing covers like 99% of the encounters. So taking blind fight for that 1% that you can cover with a potion or scroll doesn't seem effective to me. Also, both brown fur and vivi can cast echolocation no your entire party if you so desire. So there's that as well. Of course as you mentioned, not everyone has these in their party, but for me a vivisectionist covers so much of your party buffs it's kind of criminal to not take one along for Core and above. But even if you don't have them, True Seeing covers nearly everything and you can use a potion or scroll for those characters that do not have Echolocation.

Also, again, blind fight isn't a feat that counters the enemies abilities. It just gives you another chance to hit them so you may still miss. Both True Seeing and Echolocation completely ignore said abilities so you can hit them normally. They're not on the same level in effectiveness. You'd have to take Improved Blind Fight to get a similar effect to Echolocation. But that's 2 whole feats. And while Improved Blind Fight is very potent vs the enemies in this game, the buffs you can get through spells give you the same thing. So taking two feats is nasty, especially if you're playing a featstarved class. But even then, like I said before, on my Fighter/Slayer Legend I didn't even have room for it.