Spells that lower Saving throws

[Augustine]

Need help finding which spells are the best for lowering reflex, will and fortitude saving throws. Starting to get to the point where the monster are reaching 20+ in bonus to there saving throws which reduce damage my mages do.
TL:DR What are the best spells to lower enemies saving throws? especially Will

[darkholyPL]

Well for Will you have mind fog. That's -10 Will.
A cool thing to do is to give an enemy visions of madness skill checks. They will get a bonus to skills, that doesn't matter, but an equal minus to attack rolls and saves. Giving them a -10 or more to all saves is kind of hilarious.

[Zerfyx]

Evil eye. Technically not a spell, but it's even better. Witches and shamans can get it.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Well for Will you have mind fog. That's -10 Will.
A cool thing to do is to give an enemy visions of madness skill checks. They will get a bonus to skills, that doesn't matter, but an equal minus to attack rolls and saves. Giving them a -10 or more to all saves is kind of hilarious.

Doesn't Mind Fog's saving throw also use Will, though?

[darkholyPL]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Well for Will you have mind fog. That's -10 Will.
A cool thing to do is to give an enemy visions of madness skill checks. They will get a bonus to skills, that doesn't matter, but an equal minus to attack rolls and saves. Giving them a -10 or more to all saves is kind of hilarious.

Doesn't Mind Fog's saving throw also use Will, though?

It does, which is kind of... strange.
But if you combine it with visions of madness first, that is a -20 or more to will, potentially.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Doesn't Mind Fog's saving throw also use Will, though?

It does, which is kind of... strange.

It's stupid is what it is. If the Will stat is low enough that the character is (realistically) susceptible to Mind Fog, then you don't need to lower it with Mind Fog.

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

But if you combine it with visions of madness first, that is a -20 or more to will, potentially.

Sure, but, see what I said above.

[Trolleur_Durden]

Evil eye is by far the best option: it gives a -4, the shaman and witch versions stack for a -8 total and even if the target succeed it's saving throw, it is still affected for 1 round, duration that you can then extend with Cackle/Chant if needed be. It's basically a guaranteed -8 to all saving throws.

[jutschi78]

If mind fog works, then should ur spells against will DC,

Frightful aspect (lvl 8 spell, wich gives you better physical stats) causes auto shaken, wich is a -2 on all saves and attack rolls.

Spells, that causes sicken lowers saves at -2 too.

Madness lower all mental attributes to 1 (but will save before also)

[blackvoid]

It's better to just ramp up illusion DC on the caster.

[Nismu]

Archons aura (cleric an such) area (centered on caster) and lasts long

[Cyrus]

Some worthy considerations

1) slow: a -1 attack roles and AC

2) curse of destruction: -4 for all ability checks and saves and attacks

3) Plague Storm

4) Energy Drain: will lower their levels, should make a check easier


Its not enough to lower saves, you need to stop them from casting or moving or it will take a lot longer due to having to save scum. These spells should be used with the above.

1) Touch of gracelessness: reduces dexterity- can help land some of the spells

2) Pern Posion: a -4 reduction to saves for spells [for nauseous gas = no casting]

3) All pits

4) Overwhelming grief: become flat-footed, -2ac , take no actions

[mudakonn]

Plague Storm is one of the cheese options since it will not aggro and can be used on neutral characters - so hide outside sight, cast different versions of it (each one affecting different stat - one version lowering save to disease as well) and if you have patience enemies will die in the storm eventually

[snuggleform]

Evil eye is overrated because you will eventually meet enemies who are immune to mind-affecting, and evil eye is mind affecting. Hope you have a backup plan!

[MjKorz]

Double Evil Eye
Touch of Law
Touch of Madness (-4 effective save debuff on average)
Vision of Madness (Skills)
Shaken - procced either via demoralization, Frightful Aspect or Prediction of Failure
Sickened - procced via Prediction of Failure
Dispel Synergy
Display of Power (-2 Will)
Twisted Temptation
Crippling Kiss (on a crit)

These are the universal debuff tools available for any mythic path and class. Mythic paths and certain classes (e.g. Diviner, Incense Synthesizer) may add some other tools specific to them:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2835084622

Mind Fog is great, because you can precast many iterations on top of each other and lure the enemy into the fog. Do not cast it on non-aggressive targets including potential enemies as it will do nothing. If some enemies engage you in dialogue/cutscene before becoming hostile, cast it on the ground and then lure the enemies inside once they become hostile, this will force them to roll saves for every iteration of the fog:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2778223350

[S N E E D]

Originally posted by Augustine:

Need help finding which spells are the best for lowering reflex, will and fortitude saving throws. Starting to get to the point where the monster are reaching 20+ in bonus to there saving throws which reduce damage my mages do.
TL:DR What are the best spells to lower enemies saving throws? especially Will

Evil Eye on a support character is good because it's -4 all saves and can't be resisted and can be cackled for indefinite duration. Your best bet however is to stack DC equipment, raise your casting stat as high as possible, use higher tier spells (spell level is a big part of DC) and use Persistent Metamagic.
A Lich for example can get their spells to have DCs in the 40s quite easily making it very difficult for monsters to save against it and a mix maxed build could probably push 50 DC.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by S N E E D:

Your best bet however is to... use Persistent Metamagic.

It's not the "best bet", because it is mutually exclusive with using Touch of Law. Touch of Law provides an effective +9 spell DC boost relative to the maximum save value the target could roll otherwise while making a spell persistent provides a +4 spell DC boost on average over the entire domain of initial success rates [0.05, 0.1...0.95].

It's an option for those who can't or don't want to use Touch of Law or for cases where you no longer need Touch of Law to guarantee 95%+ success rates and want to minimize the number of actions and active debuffs deployed.