Azata: arcane trickster vs pure sorcerer?

[Jekko]

I haven't followed the patch changes in the recent year and while checking various builds I noticed the old azata arcane trickster is listed as obsolete now and I wonder why.
Changes to sneak attack? Sorcerer arcana applies only to sorcerer spells?

[Uzkin]

Omitting damage buffs that are equal for both builds, this is what their end-game single-target and AOE attacks look like:

Sorcerer20:
Maximized-empowered-bolstered Stormbolts:
(20*8 + 40)*1.5 = 300 damage
Maximized-empowered-bolstered Hellfire Ray:
3*(15*6 + 30)*1.5*1.15(crit-modifier) = 621 damage

ArcaneTrickster10/Sneakattacker1/Arcanecaster9:
Maximized-empowered-sneak Stormbolts:
(19*8)*1.5 + 12d6(sneak) = 270 damage
Maximized-empowered-sneak Hellfire Ray:
3*(15*6)*1.5*1.15 + 3*12d6(sneak) = 592 damage

Pure sorcerer20 is better in both categories. And sneak attack does not always work so in practice the numbers favor sorc20 even more.

[MjKorz]

引用自 Jekko：

I haven't followed the patch changes in the recent year and while checking various builds I noticed the old azata arcane trickster is listed as obsolete now and I wonder why.
Changes to sneak attack? Sorcerer arcana applies only to sorcerer spells?

Sneak attack on rays is obsolete due to bolster metamagic outperforming it.

Azata's strongest mythic ability is Favorable Magic that forces the enemy to roll their saves vs your spells twice and take the worse result, meaning that any DC caster sorcerer is vastly superior to an Arcane Trickster for Azata path and pretty much any path in general.

[Conquista]

you still clear the game on azata arcane trickster, its not the strongest build but also not the worst

[Jekko]

引用自 Uzkin：

Omitting damage buffs that are equal for both builds, this is what their end-game single-target and AOE attacks look like:

Sorcerer20:
Maximized-empowered-bolstered Stormbolts:
(20*8 + 40)*1.5 = 300 damage
Maximized-empowered-bolstered Hellfire Ray:
3*(15*6 + 30)*1.5*1.15(crit-modifier) = 621 damage

ArcaneTrickster10/Sneakattacker1/Arcanecaster9:
Maximized-empowered-sneak Stormbolts:
(19*8)*1.5 + 12d6(sneak) = 270 damage
Maximized-empowered-sneak Hellfire Ray:
3*(15*6)*1.5*1.15 + 3*12d6(sneak) = 592 damage

Pure sorcerer20 is better in both categories. And sneak attack does not always work so in practice the numbers favor sorc20 even more.

I see ty. Does the sorcerer arcana still apply to non sorcerer spells/hex/etc?

[Steffan]

I think both are viable. With arcane trickster you get a bit more skills. Damage wise, it's not such a big difference.

Play what would fit your character the best.

[Uzkin]

引用自 steffan8：

I think both are viable. With arcane trickster you get a bit more skills. Damage wise, it's not such a big difference.

Play what would fit your character the best.

Agreed. That said, lower damage is not the only downside of an Arcane Trickster (AT). AT also loses 1 Caster Level (due to a rogue or vivi dip) and 1 Attack Bonus (again, due to multiclassing) when compared to a sorcerer. AT also loses the things associated with said caster level, e.g. some spell slots and some spell penetration. Furthermore, it loses a few bloodline abilities and sorcerer feats, and loses an additional feat due to having to pick Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

[Steffan]

引用自 Uzkin：

引用自 steffan8：

I think both are viable. With arcane trickster you get a bit more skills. Damage wise, it's not such a big difference.

Play what would fit your character the best.

Agreed. That said, lower damage is not the only downside of an Arcane Trickster (AT). AT also loses 1 Caster Level (due to a rogue or vivi dip) and 1 Attack Bonus (again, due to multiclassing) when compared to a sorcerer. AT also loses the things associated with said caster level, e.g. some spell slots and some spell penetration. Furthermore, it loses a few bloodline abilities and sorcerer feats, and loses an additional feat due to having to pick Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Why do you need a vivisectionist level? IMHO It's not worth it if you are getting and Accomplished sneak attacker. Mythic levels and azata abilities more than compensate for the loss of a caster level.

[Uzkin]

引用自 steffan8：

Why do you need a vivisectionist level? IMHO It's not worth it if you are getting and Accomplished sneak attacker. Mythic levels and azata abilities more than compensate for the loss of a caster level.

You need (at least) 2d6 sneak attack to be eligible for Arcane Trickster. You can get 1d6 from either a rogue or a vivi dip, and another 1d6 from Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Trickster could get access to SA dice without dipping into sneak attack classes but an Azata cannot.

[Steffan]

引用自 Uzkin：

引用自 steffan8：

Why do you need a vivisectionist level? IMHO It's not worth it if you are getting and Accomplished sneak attacker. Mythic levels and azata abilities more than compensate for the loss of a caster level.

You need (at least) 2d6 sneak attack to be eligible for Arcane Trickster. You can get 1d6 from either a rogue or a vivi dip, and another 1d6 from Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Trickster could get access to SA dice without dipping into sneak attack classes but an Azata cannot.

I've missed the "or" part in "rogue or vivi". ;) It's clear now

[Yannir]

引用自 Uzkin：

引用自 steffan8：

I think both are viable. With arcane trickster you get a bit more skills. Damage wise, it's not such a big difference.

Play what would fit your character the best.

Agreed. That said, lower damage is not the only downside of an Arcane Trickster (AT). AT also loses 1 Caster Level (due to a rogue or vivi dip) and 1 Attack Bonus (again, due to multiclassing) when compared to a sorcerer. AT also loses the things associated with said caster level, e.g. some spell slots and some spell penetration. Furthermore, it loses a few bloodline abilities and sorcerer feats, and loses an additional feat due to having to pick Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

How do you lose the 1 AB? That doesn't make sense to me since both Vivi and Rogue have average BAB progression as opposed to Sorc being low BAB progression. Shouldn't it have more, if anything?

And isn't caster-level also a bit irrelevant when in regards to Rays? Rays target touch AC so it's more your BAB that matters. Hellfire Ray maxes out on 3 Rays at lvl 19 so you can do a 1-lvl dip without losing anything significant.

Also, while Sorcerer gets like 10% more damage, isn't AT a lot more likely to actually land their damage? Mostly because they are using those metamagic spells as Standard Actions while Sorcerers metamagic causes all metamagic'd spells to turn into Full-Round Actions. There's a number of conditions that can reduce you to not be able to use Full-Round Actions. I prefer a realistic assessment as opposed to theoretical numbers.

[Uzkin]

引用自 Yannir：

How do you lose the 1 AB? That doesn't make sense to me since both Vivi and Rogue have average BAB progression as opposed to Sorc being low BAB progression. Shouldn't it have more, if anything?

Do you know the "floor" function? It rounds numbers down, usually to nearest integer. For example, floor(1.8) = 1.

The Base Attack Bonus (BAB) of a multi-classed character is calculated by adding together the BAB from each class. The BAB from a class is calculated as floor(BAB-coefficient * class-level). BAB-coefficient for an AT, sorcerer and wizard is 0.5 and for a rogue and vivi 0.75. Thus:

Sorcerer level 20:
BAB = floor(0.5 * 20) = floor(10) = 10.

AT10/rogue1/caster9:
BAB = floor(0.5*10) + floor(0.75*1) + floor(0.5*9) = floor(5) + floor(0.75) + floor(4.5) = 5 + 0 + 4 = 9.

Therefore, an arcane trickster loses 1 AB compared to a pure sorcerer.

[Yannir]

引用自 Uzkin：

引用自 Yannir：

How do you lose the 1 AB? That doesn't make sense to me since both Vivi and Rogue have average BAB progression as opposed to Sorc being low BAB progression. Shouldn't it have more, if anything?

Do you know the "floor" function? It rounds numbers down, usually to nearest integer. For example, floor(1.8) = 1.

The Attack Bonus (AB) of a multi-classed character is calculated by adding together the AB from each class. The AB from a class is calculated as floor(BAB-coefficient * class-level). BAB-coefficient for an AT, sorcerer and wizard is 0.5 and for a rogue and vivi 0.75. Thus:

Sorcerer level 20:
AB = floor(0.5 * 20) = floor(10) = 10.

AT10/rogue1/caster9:
AB = floor(0.5*10) + floor(0.75*1) + floor(0.5*9) = floor(5) + floor(0.75) + floor(4.5) = 5 + 0 + 4 = 9.

Therefore, an arcane trickster loses 1 AB compared to a pure sorcerer.

Ok, that makes sense as far as the math goes. I do think that 0.75 should be rounded up though, not down. As in that's how I think it should work. Or maybe the rounding to the floor should be applied after the total is calculated. Feels backwards that picking a higher BAB class as a multiclass costs you BAB.

[Uzkin]

引用自 Yannir：

Ok, that makes sense as far as the math goes. I do think that 0.75 should be rounded up though, not down. As in that's how I think it should work. Or maybe the rounding to the floor should be applied after the total is calculated. Feels backwards that picking a higher BAB class as a multiclass costs you BAB.

Pathfinder tries to limit the power of multi-classing by rules such as this. Rounding BABs down is working as intended.

[Orion Invictus]

引用自 Uzkin：

引用自 Yannir：

Ok, that makes sense as far as the math goes. I do think that 0.75 should be rounded up though, not down. As in that's how I think it should work. Or maybe the rounding to the floor should be applied after the total is calculated. Feels backwards that picking a higher BAB class as a multiclass costs you BAB.

Pathfinder tries to limit the power of multi-classing by rules such as this. Rounding BABs down is working as intended.

Isn't rounding down just general tabletop practice? I don't have much experience with these games, but I don't recall ever rounding up.

[Uzkin]

引用自 Orion Invictus：

Isn't rounding down just general tabletop practice? I don't have much experience with these games, but I don't recall ever rounding up.

Yeah, but instead of rounding down the BAB from individual classes they could round down the final combined BAB. For example, for the AT build in question:

floor(0.5*10) + floor(0.75*1) + floor(0.5*9) = 9

vs.

floor(0.5*10 + 0.75*1 + 0.5*9) = floor(10.25) = 10.

Pathfinder system chooses the former, in order to limit the power of multiclassing. This makes dipping multiple classes such as rowdy1 + vivisectionist1 + ... for various level 1 class abilities, less lucrative.