Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

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Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 2:20pm
Abyssal Corruption is a terrible mechanic.
Halfway through Act III at this point and I genuinely can not understand why this mechanic is even here. It has done nothing but annoy the hell out of me by forcing me to take long treks back to Drezen in order to clear it while I'm just starting to really get into exploring the map.

It doesn't even make sense in the context of the narrative! Why can Woljiff just sit around hanging out with some cultists for days and even weeks with no ill side effects from the supposed corruption? Why is it never once mentioned as a concern outside of when you're introduced to the mechanic? Why exactly can my army traipse around corruption free while I have to go rest in bed like a chump regularly?

Can anyone explain why this mechanic even exists or is it there solely to waste my time?

And please don't say "It's easy to avoid getting corruption". I'm asking why it exists and what it adds to the game, not looking for people to get on a high-horse and state how little they care about it.
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Showing 31-45 of 57 comments
JustSmile Sep 21, 2021 @ 3:50pm 
Originally posted by Alex:
It has nothing to do with me not managing my spells or anything stupid like that. I can't control that travelling across the map eventually leads to exhaustion, which necessitates a rest in order to clear.
You do know your party can walk around exhausted indefinitely? Yes, there are random encounters, but they are trivially weak. I've killed a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of those with my entire group exhausted, slapped a STR buff or potion or a restoration on the mage so she could leave the map, and continued my trip still exhausted.
Originally posted by Alex:
Do you think its existence tangibly improves the game?
Yes, I explicitly explained how earlier. Without corruption resting is free, therefore daily resources are functionally unlimited, completely breaking ability and spell economy. Casters do not need to be even more OP. In tabletop the DM will slap the party upside down in a million ways if they decide they need a long rest every five minutes. In cRPG a flexible DM is necessarily replaced by a rigid system.

Originally posted by Alex:
Do you think there are no other, better, alternatives?
Do you have a system that limits the amount of resting you can do without limiting the distance you can travel outside the central hub? Please share.

Last edited by JustSmile; Sep 21, 2021 @ 3:52pm
Siegdarth Sep 21, 2021 @ 3:51pm 
Why some people always have a problem with resource management or dificulty?
The enemy have huge AC cast buffs that gives you more BAB, enemy have displacement/blur, use true sight, enemy uses level drain so use death ward.
You lack carrying capacity use bull str or get a bag of holding.
Don't wan't to deal with corruption build teleporters have someone to do rituals and or use your army for exploration instead of walking around.

Why do my health drop if can use healing spells?
Why I have to bring a divine and a arcane caster or a rogue with me?
Why i can't play with 6 barbarians ?
Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:00pm 
Originally posted by Rosh+:
You have been complaining about being 'forced' to make the trip back to Drezen by way of Corruption while ignoring the obvious solution to your problem. I realize you say here that you don't like the crusade mechanic, or the building management, and I hope you realise that at that point, it is solely a *you* issue.
How is the solution obvious if the only way to discover it is engaging with a specific, mostly optional, system? A system that they literally let you automate, in which case you'd never be able to discover it at all?

Of course it's a me issue. It is an annoying system that harms my preferred playstyle of taking long expeditions and only resting when getting fatigue/exhaustion. It's annoying. And I'm mentioning it because it's poorly implemented and doesn't do any of the things it attempts to do.
Originally posted by Rosh+:
As for the issue of removing it, that is completely unreasonable from the development standpoint of this game. In the module that this is based off of, and the module Kingmaker was based off of, time management was a huge deal. You needed to stop the demons in time, you needed to build up a Kingdom in time, and everything took a certain amount of time to do. The more reasonable thing here to ask would be that the system be replaced.
It could certainly be made to be a toggle-able option in the difficulty menu if they were wanted it to, since the exploration system is taken and modified from Kingmaker and corruption didn't exist at all there. It's very doubtful that it's such a core system so as to be unfeasible to remove or create a toggle for.
Originally posted by Rosh+:
It is clearly doing it's job because it's punishing people who rest after every few fights and don't plan much anything at all, and it's easy to avoid if you aren't one of those people.
Except... it literally doesn't do its job at all. You yourself say that it's easy to avoid by setting up outposts and teleporters. If someone who was rest spamming just did that, then they literally wouldn't be effected by it at all, beyond being occasionally forced to sit through some loading screens. How exactly is it well-designed or effective in that case? Like I said, it's a minor waste of time at worst, and a complete non-issue at best. You haven't given me one actual reason for how it improves the game at all, beyond being slightly annoying to rest-spammers.

This is accepting that it's worth creating annoying systems to stop rest-spamming in the first place, which is incredibly dubious given this is a singleplayer game and trying to enforce a certain playstyle on players by punishing them with annoying systems almost never leads to a better game.
Last edited by Alex :V; Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:40pm
Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:23pm 
Originally posted by JustSmile:
Originally posted by Alex:
Do you think there are no other, better, alternatives?
Do you have a system that limits the amount of resting you can do without limiting the distance you can travel outside the central hub? Please share.
How about what I said in the first page of the thread? Making corruption stack rapidly on cumulative rests but decrease as time goes on? That way you can just explore normally without having to deal with your immersion being broken for no reason by a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ system? Because right now it doesn't punish resting at all and only serves to be annoying.

Originally posted by JustSmile:
Yes, I explicitly explained how earlier. Without corruption resting is free, therefore daily resources are functionally unlimited, completely breaking ability and spell economy. Casters do not need to be even more OP. In tabletop the DM will slap the party upside down in a million ways if they decide they need a long rest every five minutes. In cRPG a flexible DM is necessarily replaced by a rigid system.
Just because you "explicity explained" it doesn't mean it's a good point. DM's probably won't create a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ system like corruption either. They will just limit how much you can rest directly. You know, something actually intelligent and reasonable? No DM is going to be like "Alright boys, your corruption has gone up by 5%. You're now at 13%. Remember that if you hit 21% your DEX is going to decrease by 2!" Everyone at the table would walk out if you put some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like that in there.
Originally posted by JustSmile:
You do know your party can walk around exhausted indefinitely? Yes, there are random encounters, but they are trivially weak. I've killed a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of those with my entire group exhausted, slapped a STR buff or potion or a restoration on the mage so she could leave the map, and continued my trip still exhausted.
Your very reasonable suggestion is for me to just walk everywhere at half-speed with massive stat penalties at all times just to avoid a mechanic that shouldn't even exist in the first place? You realize that you're agreeing with me, right? That the mechanic is inconvenient and annoying and you have to waste your time dealing with it? Because that's functionally what your comment is saying.
Last edited by Alex :V; Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:36pm
Rosh+ Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:50pm 
Originally posted by Alex:
How is the solution obvious if the only way to discover it is engaging with a specific, mostly optional, system? A system that they literally let you automate, in which case you'd never be able to discover it at all?

Of course it's a me issue. It is an annoying system that harms my preferred playstyle of taking long expeditions and only resting when getting fatigue/exhaustion. It's annoying. And I'm mentioning it because it's poorly implemented and doesn't do any of the things it attempts to do.

It's obvious because there's a teleportation option in the hotbar on the worldmap at the bottom of the screen that tells you that you can teleport, but it's greyed out. Anybody could deduce that some requirement must be fulfilled and would either look it up, or, the more likely of the two options; They would go into Drezen's building mode when they get it, and see one of the immediately available options: Teleportation Circle. If they explored the build menu a bit more, they'd see the Shelter as well, which protects from corruption if you rest at the city while on it while on the world map.

I'd also like to point out that it's optional through difficulty options, but if you want to control that aspect of the game, then it is not optional. You are choosing to ignore it, willingly.

It's how I found these two buildings. You chose to ignore this, willingly, so you did not.

As long as we're talking about choosing to ignore aspects of the game, you could choose to ignore fatigue and exhaustion, quicksave occasionally while moving, and only rest once you get to your desired location. Unless you have the option flipped on to have movement speed on the world map affected by fatigue and exhaustion, this has no ill effect besides perhaps occasionally being stopped by encounters, which is why you quicksave. I will also assume based on new posts that you DO have this on, in which case I ask you: If you want to play the game a certain way, why do you have difficulty options on that are making it painful for you? If you're willingly doing it, complaining about the state of the game is completely unjustified. It would be justified if it were being forced upon you. It isn't.

As for it doing it's job, it is clearly succeeding. You don't seem to be planning ahead very much, so it's punishing you for over-resting. You're not looking to fix the issue, and are instead complaining about it.

Originally posted by Alex:
It could certainly be made to be a toggle-able option in the difficulty menu if they were wanted it to, since the exploration system is taken and modified from Kingmaker and corruption didn't exist at all there. It's very doubtful that it's such a core system so as to be unfeasible to remove or create a toggle for.

I agree. That would probably be the best middle of the road solution, though it should still have the consequence that difficulty alterations on core offers: Inability to get core achievements.

Originally posted by Alex:
Except... it literally doesn't do its job at all. You yourself say that it's easy to avoid by setting up outposts and teleporters. If someone who was rest spamming just did that, then they literally wouldn't be effected by it at all, beyond being occasionally forced to sit through some loading screens. How exactly is it well-designed or effective in that case? Like I said, it's a minor waste of time at most, and a complete non-issue at best. You haven't given me one actual reason for how it improves the game at all, beyond being slightly annoying to rest-spammers.

This is accepting that it's worth creating annoying systems to stop rest-spamming in the first place, which is incredibly dubious given this is a singleplayer game and trying to enforce a certain playstyle on players by punishing them with annoying systems almost never leads to a better game.

I feel as if you are choosing to plainly ignore what I've been saying. Again, I will repeat: It is best avoided by managing your time effectively. I did not circumvent it completely by building teleporters and shelters, that was just an aspect. I made it so I did not have to rest as often or as long through many methods, many of which you can read about in my previous posts. I will not repeat these now, because I have already repeated myself in a previous post. I will ask you nicely to stop putting words in my mouth.

I will however repeat this: The issue is circumvented if you so much as manage your time effectively. Corruption, like timed quests in Kingmaker, is there to punish you for not making effective use of your time, your spells, your abilities, and the time those spells and abilities are active, or how many charges they have, and I much prefer this loose management of time over Kingmaker's version of it, which is to micromanage every single second of your time.

You are choosing to ignore an aspect of the game. You are free to ignore other aspects of the game, this is why things like auto leveling and automated builds are included in the difficulty options, which is what your decision is comparable to. You are effectively leaving an aspect of the game out-of-hand and then complaining that you have no control over it.

You're essentially complaining that you left a character on auto level/auto build and then didn't like the build the game gave him/her, and then instead of respeccing the character to fix the issue, or turning to any other options, you are demanding that the game be changed mechanically.

Again, I will repeat: If you want to play the game how you want, do not demand sprawling systemic changes, instead alter the experience with mods or difficulty changes. Don't come here and complain about it. This is like the people playing on Unfair, and complaining that the game has become... unfair.

Tackling the issue of having too many buffs to cast when I enter an enemy area. Don't have to complain about it though, because I just downloaded a convenient mod that lets me set up queues I can cast from any point afterwards at will. I'm gonna go play now, see you later.
Last edited by Rosh+; Sep 21, 2021 @ 4:54pm
Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:11pm 
Originally posted by Rosh+:
It's obvious because there's a teleportation option in the hotbar on the worldmap at the bottom of the screen that tells you that you can teleport, but it's greyed out. Anybody could deduce that some requirement must be fulfilled and would either look it up, or, the more likely of the two options; They would go into Drezen's building mode when they get it, and see one of the immediately available options: Teleportation Circle. If they explored the build menu a bit more, they'd see the Shelter as well, which protects from corruption if you rest at the city while on it while on the world map.

I'd also like to point out that it's optional through difficulty options, but if you want to control that aspect of the game, then it is not optional. You are choosing to ignore it, willingly.

It's how I found these two buildings. You chose to ignore this, willingly, so you did not.
The only reason I haven't turned the management system on auto is because doing that can ruin your game in certain mythic paths, which I am not willing to risk. You'd have a point if the game was bug-free and didn't have known problems with the auto mode, but it does, and I'm forced to engage with it against my will due to the above issue.

I never once looked at Drezen's building mode, or anything like that. And no, I didn't notice any hotbars while out in the world exploring, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Originally posted by Rosh+:
As long as we're talking about choosing to ignore aspects of the game, you could choose to ignore fatigue and exhaustion, quicksave occasionally while moving, and only rest once you get to your desired location. Unless you have the option flipped on to have movement speed on the world map affected by fatigue and exhaustion, this has no ill effect besides perhaps occasionally being stopped by encounters, which is why you quicksave. I will also assume based on new posts that you DO have this on, in which case I ask you: If you want to play the game a certain way, why do you have difficulty options on that are making it painful for you? If you're willingly doing it, complaining about the state of the game is completely unjustified. It would be justified if it were being forced upon you. It isn't.

As for it doing it's job, it is clearly succeeding. You don't seem to be planning ahead very much, so it's punishing you for over-resting. You're not looking to fix the issue, and are instead complaining about it.
You, like many others, seem to have this weird notion that just because you can play in a certain way to avoid the impact that a system has on you necessarily means it's a good system, which isn't true. It's not like I'm hardstuck at corruption 3 and can't progress. I know that you can play around it. It's just annoying to do so.

You bringing up having to constantly quicksave while fatigued and exhausted, or having to plan out your time effectively, or any other annoying method of avoiding the system is proving my point for me. You have to play in ways that are tedious and annoying in order to avoid engaging with a system that is... well, tedious and annoying. It's a net loss. And I find it frustrating, so I'm complaining about it.

To bring up a familiar example, did you go up to people who complained about the camp supplies system in Kingmaker and go "Just stack strength and use bags of holding. You can deal with it. Stop complaining."? Is your response essentially just "Here's how to play around it, deal with it." to every criticism of the game?

Originally posted by Rosh+:
I agree. That would probably be the best middle of the road solution, though it should still have the consequence that difficulty alterations on core offers: Inability to get core achievements.
Finally, some common ground. That's a perfectly acceptable trade-off to me.

Originally posted by Rosh+:
I feel as if you are choosing to plainly ignore what I've been saying. Again, I will repeat: It is best avoided by managing your time effectively. I did not circumvent it completely by building teleporters and shelters, that was just an aspect. I made it so I did not have to rest as often or as long through many methods, many of which you can read about in my previous posts. I will not repeat these now, because I have already repeated myself in a previous post. I will ask you nicely to stop putting words in my mouth.
I am very aware that you personally didn't do these things for the sole purpose of avoiding the corruption system. But your using these methods as an argument for how trivial it is to circumvent and how little it impacts your gameplay, which proves my point that it's poorly designed and doesn't do it's job effectively.

Originally posted by Rosh+:
I will however repeat this: The issue is circumvented if you so much as manage your time effectively. Corruption, like timed quests in Kingmaker, is there to punish you for not making effective use of your time, your spells, your abilities, and the time those spells and abilities are active, or how many charges they have, and I much prefer this loose management of time over Kingmaker's version of it, which is to micromanage every single second of your time.

You are choosing to ignore an aspect of the game. You are free to ignore other aspects of the game, this is why things like auto leveling and automated builds are included in the difficulty options, which is what your decision is comparable to. You are effectively leaving an aspect of the game out-of-hand and then complaining that you have no control over it.
My entire problem with your posts is this line right here.
Originally posted by Rosh+:
I will however repeat this: The issue is circumvented if you so much as manage your time effectively.
This is the basis for your entire argument against me. And it's literally not relevant to what I'm saying. It doesn't matter that it's easy to circumvent. It's that you have to circumvent it at all to begin with.

Originally posted by Rosh+:
You're essentially complaining that you left a character on auto level/auto build and then didn't like the build the game gave him/her, and then instead of respeccing the character to fix the issue, or turning to any other options, you are demanding that the game be changed mechanically.
This example is completely incomparable. A better example would be if you could only level up in safe havens. Such a system would be annoying and tedious, and accomplish almost nothing to fix any of the problems that the game has. And when I would bring up how dumb this system is, your response would be to go "Just set up a teleporter to Drezen and level-up. The system is easy to avoid. You can also toggle it off in the settings.", which, just like this conversation, addresses nothing that I said.

Originally posted by Rosh+:
Again, I will repeat: If you want to play the game how you want, do not demand sprawling systemic changes, instead alter the experience with mods or difficulty changes. Don't come here and complain about it. This is like the people playing on Unfair, and complaining that the game has become... unfair.

Tackling the issue of having too many buffs to cast when I enter an area. Don't have to complain about it, though because I just downloaded a convenient mod that lets me set up queues I can cast from any point afterwards at will. I'm gonna go play now, see you later.
Your response is essentially just: "Any issue you have can be avoided if you play a certain way, so don't complain". It is an argument against the concept of criticism. It's not a "sprawling systemic change". It is an annoying, self-contained system that has little impact on the experience of playing the game. And the impact it does have, is negative. Thus, my argument is that it should not be there. That's it.

Have fun though.
Last edited by Alex :V; Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:29pm
Aldain Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:15pm 
I find it funny that people complain that infinite resting breaks the game...while they are likely in fact, breaking the game with buff spam, touch AC abuse and summon mobs or any number of Mythic traits that do the same.

Kind of hypocritical to complain one thing breaks the game while breaking it in other ways.
JustSmile Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:24pm 
Originally posted by Aldain:
I find it funny that people complain that infinite resting breaks the game...while they are likely in fact, breaking the game with buff spam, touch AC abuse and summon mobs or any number of Mythic traits that do the same.

Kind of hypocritical to complain one thing breaks the game while breaking it in other ways.
Hahaha, go ahead and play the game on core+ without using buffs and restricting yourself from using abilities targeting touch ac. "Breaking" the game by using basic tools, what a riot. Also, please record your experience, I dearly need a laugh.
FRIDAY THE 13TH Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:28pm 
This game is full of bugs. Act iV... no comments
Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:30pm 
Originally posted by Alex:
This game is full of bugs. Act iV... no comments
Oh my god it's me! But from a different timeline! Could it be that Variants have finally invaded the real world?!
Ghost Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:31pm 
you need more rations
Foefaller Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:50pm 
I like it in a thematic sense. Makes it feel like I'm actually making expeditions into a place that's been slowly transforming into an environment that's anathema to mortals on a fundamental level due to its direct link to the planar manifestation of chaos in its most destructive form. Rather than just bounding around in the River Kingdoms without a care.

I'm confident that, if it didn't exist, there would be a multi-page thread of one person arguing with everyone else about how there is no penalty or narrative consequence of spending whole weeks in the Worldwound completely ruins their immersion (no, I would not be that person). And being an opinion, they wouldn't necessarily be more right or wrong about their position that you are of yours. (Personally, I do think the first stage is too penalizing on it's own to be fun, would be better if it didn't immediately go to having a flat chance at spell failure)

Anyway, I've recently discovered that armies use your own party's perception when making checks on finding hidden locations. I know you've been trying to avoid doing anything more with crusader management than what's absolutely necessary, but I found it to be an excellent way to find out where things are and the best way to get there so I can still rest at least once when I get there before the penalties kick in.
Last edited by Foefaller; Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:55pm
Nifty Sep 21, 2021 @ 5:53pm 
I prefer the rations system from Kingmaker, corruption is just kind of annoying really nothing decent about it just a time waster
Alex :V Sep 21, 2021 @ 6:07pm 
Originally posted by Foefaller:
I like it in a thematic sense. Makes it feel like I'm actually making expeditions into a place that's been slowly transforming into an environment that's anathema to mortals on a fundamental level due to its direct link to the planar manifestation of chaos in its most destructive form. Rather than just bounding around in the River Kingdoms without a care.

I'm confident that, if it didn't exist, there would be a multi-page thread of one person arguing with everyone else about how there is no penalty or narrative consequence of spending whole weeks in the Worldwound completely ruins their immersion (no, I would not be that person). And being an opinion, they wouldn't necessarily be more right or wrong about their position that you are of yours. (Personally, I do think the first stage is too penalizing on it's own to be fun, would be better if it didn't immediately go to having a flat chance at spell failure)

Anyway, I've recently discovered that armies use your own party's perception when making checks on finding hidden locations. I know you've been trying to avoid doing anything more with crusader management than what's absolutely necessary, but I found it to be an excellent way to find out where things are and the best way to get there so I can still rest at least once when I get there before the penalties kick in.
On paper it makes thematic sense, but it's a mechanic that has barely any reactivity in a game filled with reactivity, at least at the point where I'm at right now. If it was some dreadful side effect of being near the Worldwound, requiring specific preparations and actions in order to prevent, then that should be reflected in the system. As it is now, it's barely noticeable at all, except for the few times when you do notice it, in which case it's likely rearing its head at one of the worst possible times (Like in Act 2 when I got to Corruption 1 before unknowingly triggering the Lost Chapel event, preventing me from clearing and making that area a bit harder than it should have been).

I don't think it's unsalvageable or anything; I've proposed a solution a couple of times before (stacking rapidly upon frequent rests, decreasing over time), but I certainly think it's poorly done in its current implementation.

Also yeah I probably do have to engage more with the Crusade system. Right now I'm experiencing a performance issue where the more loading screens I go through, the worse my performance gets until I'm basically at a constant 30 fps in Drezen compared to my steady 80-90 fps in Drezen upon launching the game. And from what I've experienced of it, Crusade management has a lot of loading screens. But it is what it is I guess. If I have to do it I have to do it.
Last edited by Alex :V; Sep 21, 2021 @ 6:11pm
Elnidfse Sep 21, 2021 @ 6:41pm 
The only thing corruption does is make limited use per day abilities worse.
Strong builds remain strong and limited builds are significantly worse. Which combined with the overtuned meat sticks that sometimes rear their ugly head put extra emphasis on greater enduring for anybody that can benefit from it or be made redundant by it.

i.e; I can manage my rests strategically throughout the dungeon given I only get 2-4 of them for things like my DD dragonform.
OOORRRRR I could take greater enduring, buff, transform, rest, and have both another dragonform for any dispells I could possibly catch as well as a full spell list which will last me for the entirety of the dungeon.

When mechanics exist that limit strategy players are generally rewarded for taking the path of least resistance. Which in this game can be a 24 hour haste.
Last edited by Elnidfse; Sep 21, 2021 @ 7:21pm
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Date Posted: Sep 21, 2021 @ 2:20pm
Posts: 57