Which caster companion, Nenio or Ember?

[Bermag]

Which caster companions do you include in your normal party?

I am currently on lvl 11 and at this level I think Nenio is more powerful because of lvl 6 spells and equipment (i.e Draven's hat + Belt of demonic shadow; the latter is overpowered at this level, .Nenio was only one alive against Wintersun bug boss with help of spawned shadow demon).

But maybe Ember is a better choice with a few more levels. With Nenio I am mostly using ray spells (Burning/Scorching/hellfire ray) for damage spells but maybe Ember is better suited for that sionce she has precision shot from start. Wizard got some other powerful spells but witch has hexes and spontaneous casting.

Probably going to rtespec both of them.

My core party is me (ranger), Regill, Seelah, Daeran. Then either use Ember/Nenio or Wolijif/Greybor (when not companion quest).

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από IlluminaZero:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από revan1229:

This isn't unique to Ember? If anything, she's worse at this style of play because she is a spontaneous caster.

I find it better to have 3 tiers of Hellfire Ray always available and catered to the individual enemy rather than 3 tiers of Hellfire Ray that comes at the cost of me casting anything else in that spell slot.

Although with how versatile Hexes are (particularly Evil Eye) I find that Ember's spells tend to last even longer since she frequently can contribute pretty well without using per-rest spells at all.

Blessed is turn based.

Hellfire Rays that cast in a full round.... And how are Hellfire Rays "catered to the individual enemy?" And if Nenio is your blaster, she should be stocked up on Hellfire Rays, since that's her job. However, she can still easily have Blur, Displacement, Haste, Heroic Invocation, etc. In terms of longevity.....yet again, Nenio is a Scroll Savant.

[seeker1]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από LoneEagle:

Whoa, Neo just showed up! :)

Well, they gave him some vacation time from Cybperpunk 2077.

P.S. I know this too is off topic, but Matrix: Resurrections sucked ass.

That is all.

[IlluminaZero]

Yes. What I'm making the distinction of however is that while Hellfire Rays would become "Nenio's job" Ember; due to being a spontaneous caster, can simply have them on reserve without sacrificing anything. Quite literally since she cannot NOT have Hellfire rays in her kit actually.

Catering the spell to the enemy is in reference to choosing how much metamagic feats you want to apply. Casting bolsted + empowered + maximized scorching/hellfire rays will likely be overkill in many scenarios... With Ember having the additional benefit of using Hexes to make her available spell slots last longer.

Personally I find going through the inventory for specific scrolls really annoying. The icons are small and you cannot do a search query. Its also in the end still at cost unlike Ember who will likely simply have such spells floating around.

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In any case I'm actually pointing out how the two can be compatible if you build towards their initial builds. And in the end I even ended with "where is your haste bot" showing a preference for Nenio overall with the OPs party composition.

Nenio CAN be a Hellfire Ray user but I find it a waste when Ember is kitted to not only do so but better than Nenio anyways - Especially since I typically want "extended" for haste anyways. Which doesn't benefit blaster spells at all.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από IlluminaZero:

Yes. What I'm making the distinction of however is that while Hellfire Rays would become "Nenio's job" Ember; due to being a spontaneous caster, can simply have them on reserve without sacrificing anything. Quite literally since she cannot NOT have Hellfire rays in her kit actually.

Catering the spell to the enemy is in reference to choosing how much metamagic feats you want to apply. Casting bolsted + empowered + maximized scorching/hellfire rays will likely be overkill in many scenarios... With Ember having the additional benefit of using Hexes to make her available spell slots last longer.

Personally I find going through the inventory for specific scrolls really annoying. The icons are small and you cannot do a search query. Its also in the end still at cost unlike Ember who will likely simply have such spells floating around.

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In any case I'm actually pointing out how the two can be compatible if you build towards their initial builds. And in the end I even ended with "where is your haste bot" showing a preference for Nenio overall with the OPs party composition.

Nenio CAN be a Hellfire Ray user but I find it a waste when Ember is kitted to not only do so but better than Nenio anyways - Especially since I typically want "extended" for haste anyways. Which doesn't benefit blaster spells at all.

But Hellfire Rays are spell level 7. The only major buff on that level is Legendary Proportions, which plenty of other people can cast. Many of Nenio's major buffs are at the lower level: Blur/Displacement, Improved Invisibility, Haste, etc. Stocking higher level slots with nukes is not much of an issue. Besides Heroic Invocation and maybe Communal Mind Blank (both of which really only need prepared once), there is not a huge opportunity cost at higher levels.

You say Empowered + Bolstered + Maximized is overkill...so why would Nenio be applying all of those at once? I don't get this point...

While Ember has hexes, Nenio has scrolls. This game throws them at you and has accessories to make casting from scrolls stronger. You can also scribe them. Finding it tedious to locate them in inventory doesn't mean it's not a strong tool in her arsenal.... This is also not really directly about blasting, since both will have more than enough spell slots anyway.

I don't disagree that they can be compatible. I disagree with the notion that Ember is the better blaster or that Nenio is locked into being a DC Illusion caster. You say Ember is kitted to blast better, but I'm seeing arguments about hexes and "conditional" spells - not her actual ability to blast.

Nenio also has faster progression, which makes her ideal for dipping. This imo makes her better for Arcane Trickster, but she can also dip into CB Sorc for damage die without falling behind the spontaneous casters.

[Myrmicus]

Ok... you made me load an endgame save to compare the two characters.
With both characters at the same level, both with the full Improved casting ability, Ember can cast one more spell than Nenio per spell level INCLUDING the specialisation school... which must be an illusion spell.
That's more ammunitions for Ember.

But while Ember can cast X number of spell per level, she can choose to cast any other spell she knows. Nenio, on the other hand, has to memorize those spells... this means that if you want to go full blaster with Nenio, you sacrifice her versatility for the sake of blasting, which is a problem.


Sure you can make Nenio a pretty damn good blaster, especially since she starts out with a better casting stat than Ember. But turning Nenio into a dedicated blaster is a waste of her potential and versatility, while Ember don't loose anything while still being a blasting monster.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Myrmicus:

Ok... you made me load an endgame save to compare the two characters.
With both characters at the same level, both with the full Improved casting ability, Ember can cast one more spell than Nenio per spell level INCLUDING the specialisation school... which must be an illusion spell.
That's more ammunitions for Ember.

But while Ember can cast X number of spell per level, she can choose to cast any other spell she knows. Nenio, on the other hand, has to memorize those spells... this means that if you want to go full blaster with Nenio, you sacrifice her versatility for the sake of blasting, which is a problem.


Sure you can make Nenio a pretty damn good blaster, especially since she starts out with a better casting stat than Ember. But turning Nenio into a dedicated blaster is a waste of her potential and versatility, while Ember don't loose anything while still being a blasting monster.

As I said many times already, measuring a blaster is not simply looking at spells/day in WoTR. Look at how many spells each of them have on your save. Do you see yourself realistically running out of spells in a given battle (or day)? Also, yet again.....Nenio is a SCROLL SAVANT in a game with tons of scroll drops, scroll merchants, the ability to scribe scrolls, and accessories that make casting from scrolls stronger.

Also, why is Nenio committing to blasting at higher levels a problem? Again, many of her key buffs are lower level spells, so she will still have plenty of versatility (and again, scrolls). And there are 5 other people in the party...

Waste is subjective. Considering what Nenio can do as a blaster (especially Arcane Trickster), I personally wouldn't call it a waste. I do agree, however, that using her as a blaster can be party dependent. However, I would say exactly the same thing for Ember (or any other caster for that matter). And Ember does have opportunity costs being a blaster. You can't blast and cast hexes at the same time, for example.

[IlluminaZero]

There is something to be said for Ember also having more spell slots even with consideration to the locked Illusion slot - Which I completely forgot TBH.

The Ember in my present game actually doesn't have "abundant casting" in favor of ascended element, metamagic feats, spell penetration, and the Evocation school feats (DC and spell level). There is something to be said for the assumption of abundant casting in the first place perhaps.

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Both are going to be limited by action economy though - With Ember always having something to do aside from casting spells. (IE Hexes, which I absolutely love). I actually see this as augmenting her offensive options. Especially as they tend to not have contradictory optimization paths (Exp: Extended vs Empower)

Hexes allow Ember to always be productive without using spells - Something that is likely a problem for Nenio. Especially if you are "reserving" spell slots for specific situations. In general healing mid-battle tends to just be negative action economy. Especially since so many healing spells are "touch" range. (ew)

[IlluminaZero]

It is worth distinguishing action economy and spell availability versatility. While Ember can't; typically, heal and blast at the same time (cough sorcerous reflexes and quicken spells) there is nothing stopping Ember from having both healing and blasting spells always available at all times.

Which is actually great even outside of combat since it allows Ember to help minimizes rest times.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από IlluminaZero:

There is something to be said for Ember also having more spell slots even with consideration to the locked Illusion slot - Which I completely forgot TBH.

The Ember in my present game actually doesn't have "abundant casting" in favor of ascended element, metamagic feats, spell penetration, and the Evocation school feats (DC and spell level). There is something to be said for the assumption of abundant casting in the first place perhaps.

-----

Both are going to be limited by action economy though - With Ember always having something to do aside from casting spells. (IE Hexes, which I absolutely love)

Hexes allow Ember to always be productive without using spells - Something that is likely a problem for Nenio. Especially if you are "reserving" spell slots for specific situations. In general healing mid-battle tends to just be negative action economy. Especially since so many healing spells are "touch" range. (ew)

Channeling is useful early game. Mass Heal can be clutch endgame (and is not touch). Also, Boundless Healing is a thing. There's also a crossbow that gives a similar effect.

We can discuss Abundant Casting as a benefit for Ember. However, all of the feats you mentioned can still easily be obtained by Nenio. And I think this is counterbalanced by a few things: Nenio's faster progression, better Metamagic usage, and full access to the entire Arcane spell list (Sirocco...).

In terms of action economy, yet again, Nenio will have access to your entire arsenal of scrolls and will be able to use them incredibly effectively. That to me provides far greater versatility on the whole than Ember's hexes. Nenio can blast, buff, debuff, summon, and heal with literally no spell slots.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από IlluminaZero:

It is worth distinguishing action economy and spell availability versatility. While Ember can't; typically, heal and blast at the same time (cough sorcerous reflexes and quicken spells) there is nothing stopping Ember from having both healing and blasting spells always available at all times.

Which is actually great even outside of combat since it allows Ember to help minimizes rest times.

Do you typically need to heal right after your Initiative roll, though? Quicken is also +4...which is costly. You're looking at rods, which are endgame, for the most useful healing spells. And having available is fine....using them is another story. Most people will have Sosiel or Daeran for support (some people even run both); both are better healers and more than sufficient for healing on their own. In a party setting, Ember (or Nenio) does not need to try to do everything.

[Der Mentat]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Sense Vitals yet. At least in Kingmaker (but I'm pretty sure also on WotR) it worked on every ray. So, up to +15d6 for a high level cast of Scorching Ray or Hellfire Ray.
It's not on the Witch spell list, only Nenio can use it.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Der Mentat:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Sense Vitals yet. At least in Kingmaker (but I'm pretty sure also on WotR) it worked on every ray. So, up to +15d6 for a high level cast of Scorching Ray or Hellfire Ray.
It's not on the Witch spell list, only Nenio can use it.

Good point. It still works on each ray. This also applies to all spells with the AT capstone.

[michaelkim88]

Okay... for a non poster this discussion has driven me to post again... :) lol

Everyone will find a "niche" argument to say one is as good or better than the other. Truth is as I mentioned in my orginal post I played the game through at Daring and Hard difficutly with both. Both worked great when specced properly and used properly. And yes of course you can choose other party members to compliment and enhance each of their characters ultility efficientcy and Damage dealing. But I thought that was not the focus of this thread... at least the way it began. Without elaborating in too much detail I will try to elborate on why I myself prefered Ember.

1) Efficiency. Notice I did not say Versatility or Utility. They are both Versatile and have great Utility when built correctly. BUt Ember is more efficient as I mentioned in my original post. Sure Nenio has more choices and a large spellbook. However, once again ingame and infight mean spell economy rules apply and largely negate Neneio massive and usually largely under utilitized Spelbook. I don't even use a majorty of Embers spells for that matter. But this is largely academic. When it comes to efficeincy for before and after healing a buffing there is no comparison.

Ember is the most efficient. Why? Its simple, her hexes that buff, ward and heal are limitless. Yes some only allow for casting per day but IF you wanna go without rest using them doesnt eat up spells. And some one can just cast as many time as you want. And her debuffs don't need to eat up speels either cause you just keep cackling. No matter if you have abudant casting etc... if you fully buff and you will have to at Hard level with many sub boss and boss fights, I always ran on empty with Nenio if I wanted to fullly use her to buff the entire party or heal everyone before their fight from the last fight or after their fight. This is because if you cast single target buffs you eat up 5 to 6 spells per each of these buffs. This is compared to "ZERO" for Ember. Ya can't beat Zero consumption for healing and buffing. IT saves on scrolls and potions usage by a huge margin. Now in a fight rather than before or after action economy usually dictated that with either character I usually just tried to KILL KILL KILL, FAST FAST FAST,.... otherwise at HArd or Unfair I was Dead if I tried to be cute in my approach to bosses.

2( Efficiency with Buffs ad Utility mean more spell casts in a practical sense still dedicated to Blasting. And again as mentioned before WOTR is a bit blast centric. Cuase at harder levels you want big enemies Dead ASAP or they will have the time to bring the pain to you. I have experimented coutless times trying to finish some fight with coordinated Flair. Vs reload said fight and just Burn everything down. I preffer the former but must admit the latter is better unless your a masocist and want to emerge from every tough battle in no shape to enter the next one without resting or using up valuable restoration spells and scrolls and potions when their are plenty more fights ahead. Until ya like going back and forth to town all the time.

3) Quality of Life goes to Ember . She's much better with quality of life whie playing. To get the most out of Nenio I always found myself adjusting and readjusting her spell book based on the encounters and enemy types. THis is very time consuming. No need with Ember. She is much easier to play and less time consuming to play optimally. Though again they can both be very "optimally" configured for many roles. Its just easier with one than the other. HEck even Ember my life got even better when I used a auto buff mod. Small adjustments as she leveled and got access to morebuffs, wards and hexes only needed a few times during her playthrough. When I played Nenio the most optimal way which was to tune her spell book all the time I had to make way more frequent adjustments to the buff bot configuration. Now I love all the detail but it got real old real fast and it was really tedious.

4) Roleplay : Ember is a fire blaster. Her name is EMber. Heck even her curse is "Blackened" YOu can OP min max her and she is still in Character. YOu can do the same to Nenio but then she isn't really Nenio the scroll savant anymore. Her story arc cntent and playstyle as a blaster are difficult to recognize. Nenio is great as she is built with some dips ot not if you prefer but as an illusionist she is great. Turn her into an optimized evocation fire starter and I soon found that she became diconnected with her own story arc and text and speech content.

5) Did I mention roleplay? "Nenio is aNNoying" I usually don't get annoyed with chracater story arcs and speech content but Nenio was the exception for me. I couldn't even try to Love to hate her. I just didn't like her "roleplay" story arc and content. IT was like listening to fingers on a chalkboard everytime she spoke in game. BUt still I plodded on using here as the man spellcaster for a play though but I found myself using her much as I would build a mercenary. Heck Even a Mercenary would be better caue you could build a Merc Spell caster with custom photos and your own lore with all or more of Nenios capabilities and enjoy playing the merc more as the only thing that makes companions better than mercs is their story content and inteaction. Nenio story and interactive story content made me usually NOT want to use her. Build yourself another scroll savant like a Galadriel knockoff or Merlin, etc... and you might have more fun in your head than the irritating content build for Nenio. Ember on the other hand though slightly annoying is well within my tolerance level and sometimes even moderately amusing or pleasant and doesnt invoke feelings of character assasination "I mean that literally like wanting to assasinate her in game character" lol

6) With all the above being said again they are both good for getting the job done and high damage dealers and utility characters. You can use both and get Nenio mass phantasmal genocial abilities (of evil demons) and EMber's Nuclear Napalm and often leave your other characters with not much to do except clean up. Equally effective or perhaps even more effective than running just one dedicated spell caster. With that said running 4 spell casters a healer with a tank might work even better but that might make for a really boring play thru after the nostagia of filling the whole screen a few times with magical mayhem was thru. This is the same thing that makes the best campaign generals which are casters like sitsuna shai really boring after a while.

[kirill-busidow]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Traveler:

Both. Neither cast offensive spells because spell resistance; but protection and healing are fantastic. Also they both aren't bad with bows.

Yes, Ember is awesome with bows. With her curse (-4 to hit), lack of precise shot and low AB. Low str, which means composite bows are out. etc.

Sometimes i dont even know if people have are just silly or trolling for lulz.

[revan1229]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από michaelkim88:

snip

1. First, "if you wanna go without rest...." is a personal choice. You don't have to go without resting, especially since longer stretches of dungeon have relics. Additionally, Nenio is a Scroll Savant. This game throws scrolls at you, there are multiple scroll vendors, you can write scrolls, and there are items that strengthen her ability to cast from scrolls. She can do quite a lot with literally no spell slots. Next, you are comparing hexes and spells, which aren't the same thing. Yes, Displacement and Haste cost slots, but the effect of Displacement or Haste on the entire party is not the same thing as Protective Luck or Evil Eye. These are not the same role (especially if you're having Ember Cackle constantly).

2. I don't even see what you're trying to say here. If you're saying blasting is more effective: okay. That doesn't say anything about Ember vs. Nenio.

3. This is 100% personal. Some people prefer always being able to tinker with spellbooks, while others like a hybrid approach (Arcanist).

4. .....Okay.

5. ......Moving on.

6. So, I view these characters differently (both are strong), but I jumped in when people said that Ember was unequivocally the best blaster. You seem to be repeating the notion that Nenio is destined to be an Illusion specialist and nothing else. Nenio can easily match (if not surpass) Ember's firepower:

-Nenio's Metamagic doesn't take a full round (not just useful for blasting, but also Selective Webs, Greases, etc.). Empowered/Bolstered is better in her hands for a large majority of the game.
-Nenio has a higher starting casting stat (20 vs. 17).
-Nenio has faster progression.
-Nenio has access to Sense Vitals for SA blasting.
-Nenio has the full arcane list. Even opposition spells only cost 2 slots. Ember misses out on some strong arcane spells (like Sirocco).