Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

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Eldrin 2021 年 9 月 20 日 上午 11:47
Is wizard better this time around?
In kingmaker sorcerer was pretty much better then wizard because in a video game it is hard to make a wizard good at what it is in tabletop as in utility and versatility. Has the wizard been improved or changed in this one or is sorcerer still supreme?

Also has this game in general widened spell selection, that is also a big reason why wizard was where it was.
最后由 Eldrin 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 上午 11:48
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正在显示第 16 - 30 条,共 76 条留言
Dixon Sider 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:39 
引用自 Aunt Tony
This means Sorcerers are better than Wizards in every scenario. Period.
More like quotation period quotation period

I find that every level I want a spell that attacks each saving throw, each saving throw to have an AoE and single target variant. Thats 9 spells per level that I look for.

Sorceresrs are far too limited on spells to be better in every scenario. What happens when there is a scenario asking for a spell you don't have? Do you use a scroll/potion?
最后由 Dixon Sider 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:43
jsaving 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:39 
引用自 Eldrin
In kingmaker sorcerer was pretty much better then wizard
That is debatable, both because wizard archetypes bring more to the table than sorcerer archetypes do and because INT is a better casting stat to have.

Why is INT better as a casting stat? It tops out at a higher number than CHA when properly buffed/geared, mainly, which gives you better DCs in a game where every point counts. Secondarily, going INT-based gives you a mental stat you can dump without consequence (CHA) and ensures you'll have someone who is top-notch at all knowledge and lore skills (assuming you selected the proper oblate for your background).

If you changed your statement to "sage sorcerer was pretty much better than wizard" then you'd have a stronger case. Though exploiter wizard and elemental specialist both bring things to the table that sage sorcerer can't.
Serendipitous 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:41 
Getting earlier access to spells that can make otherwise difficult encounter trivial is extremely important. Imo At least before level 6 Wiz > Sorc because communal energy resist and haste several hours earlier is quite a boost. Something like Thassilonian Specialist is pretty good since it gives you what you lack - more spell slots. After that i would say Brown-Fur Arcanist is even better than Sorcerer.
Takichi 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:45 
引用自 Aunt Tony
There's an extremely - **EXTREMELY** - limited variety of useful spells in the game currently. More than half of the total arcane spell list is just variations on fireball projectile shapes. The remainder are the core buffs like Haste and Displacement.

This means there's only about two spells per spell level which are even relevant to anything, and everything else is worthless trash like Deep Slumber (which is useless when you can cast it because by that time in the story there literally are no creatures with fewer than 10 HD) or Hold Person (why allow a single target a save every round to break out when you could hold the entire group with Web targeting Reflex which is always 2 - 4 points lower than Will saves?)

There are no useful metamagic feats for anything other than nuking - with the sole exception of Persistent Spell which is still useless because... there just are no useful non-nukes to use it on since everything is immune to mind-affecting and fort saves anyway.

This means Sorcerers are better than Wizards in every scenario. Period.

And Witches are better than Sorcerers because you'll have to kill somewhere between 50 and 100 creatures before you rest, every single time - because if you rest more frequently than that, the corruption will kill you.

Arcane spells don't matter in this game. Hexes are tolerable because of Protective Luck and that's it.

If you want to nuke, play a Kineticist.

Otherwise, wait until modders expand the game's spell list.


I Whis i could pretend do not have read this Crybabys Idea xD OFC Deep Slumber a Lvl 3 Spell becomes useless later on, but nearly each spell can be used in the Game.
Of Course thats ONLY if you do a BUild around the Respective School... Which you should ALWAYS do. Kingmaker was far to Easy in that regard since you could completly abandone Feats like "Spell Focus, Penetration" and so on.... And here you can not ;)
Faray 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:47 
Wizard also works better if you want to multi into Arcane Trickster, which given how touch AC is all the rage is a pretty strong build I feel like.
Dixon Sider 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:51 
引用自 Faray
Wizard also works better if you want to multi into Arcane Trickster, which given how touch AC is all the rage is a pretty strong build I feel like.
Arcane bomber hits touch AC from far without even having to give up a level and feat (if that exploit still works). The only issue is you don't get to change elements.
最后由 Dixon Sider 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:52
Slice 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:52 
IMO if you want the best of both worlds in the sorc vs wiz debate, take a Scroll Savant wizard. The ability to use any scroll at your current casting level is huge
Naked Granny 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:53 
引用自 Dixon Sider
引用自 Aunt Tony
This means Sorcerers are better than Wizards in every scenario. Period.
More like quotation period quotation period

I find that every level I want a spell that attacks each saving throw, each saving throw to have an AoE and single target variant. Thats 9 spells per level that I look for.

Sorceresrs are far too limited on spells to be better in every scenario. What happens when there is a scenario asking for a spell you don't have? Do you use a scroll/potion?

If you want Web to have a higher save DC, use Heighten. That way you don't need a unique new spell known for every spell level. You want to target reflex and control the room? Whatever it is, it's just gonna be a version of Web. You want to target will and control the room? Whatever it is, it's just gonna be a version of Confusion or Fear. You want to target fortitude and control the room? Stinking Cloud. You don't like all those attacks? There is no substitute for Slow - but you do want its save DC to be as good as you can afford.

Higher level spells are not necessarily better than low level ones at what they actually *do*. If you're worried about economizing on your spell slots because you only get a few of a given level, use Heighten Spell to shift those spells up.

Potions and Scrolls have low caster level and their save DCs are so low that enemies cannot fail the save ever. If you are not a Scroll Scholar (Nenio), then sell every scroll if it doesn't heal hit points or isn't Restoration. There's a few caveats and niche edge cases, but basically if you have any kind of cleric on your team (Sosiel), there are no other scrolls you need or want. They're just wasted money if you keep them.
Voidspawn 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:54 
Wizard has not been changed much since Kingmaker and I think base sorcerer has gotten even stronger due to being able to add a second bloodline with a mythic ability.

Instead of using either the wizard or the sorcerer I would instead recommend the Arcanist. It combines the ease of spontaneously casting spells with the flexibility of being able to copy spells from scrolls and change which spells to spontaneously cast on rest.

If you want to make Arcanist even better you can install the Tabletop Tweaks mod. This mod adds the "Quick Study" Arcanist Exploit from tabletop pathfinder. Quick Study allows you to change out one of your prepared spells for another using 1 point from the arcanist reservoir and 1 full round. This essentially gives you access to every spell in the wizard spellbook at any time to spontaneously cast as long as you have reservoir remaining!

If you really want to use a wizard instead the Exploiter Wizard can get Quick Study as well to change out spells similiar to the arcanist but it only changes out 1 prepared spell cast at a time instead of a spontaneous prepared spell.
SpiralRazor 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:57 
引用自 Mork
I do like my mercenary spell master quite a lot. I don't know the game yet, so being able change spells is quite nice.

I dont think its a real big deal to change spells in this one, since most of the trash *and* hard stuff is demons, and there are only so many spells that really work vs demons/devils etc.
Dixon Sider 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 12:58 
引用自 Aunt Tony
If you want Web to have a higher save DC, use Heighten. That way you don't need a unique new spell known for every spell level. You want to target reflex and control the room? Whatever it is, it's just gonna be a version of Web. You want to target will and control the room? Whatever it is, it's just gonna be a version of Confusion or Fear. You want to target fortitude and control the room? Stinking Cloud. You don't like all those attacks? There is no substitute for Slow - but you do want its save DC to be as good as you can afford.
Even then, you are going to be missing out on a lot of important spells. About 75% of the spells at each level are INCREDIBLY useful at the time you level up to get them on unfair.

Yes you can heighten, but you will be missing out on too many current spells. Its not the missing past spells that haunts sorcerer. It's the missing current level spells.

引用自 Aunt Tony
Higher level spells are not necessarily better than low level ones at what they actually *do*.
They often are though. The only thing you get from heighten is some additional DC
最后由 Dixon Sider 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:02
Agent 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:02 
Wizard will never be as powerful in cRPGs using a D&D/Pathfinder based ruleset as a Sorc because cRPGs heavily emphasize the narrow pathway in which Sorcs specialize. So much of a wizard's utility in pnp is in versatility and finding creative ways to cast random spells to apply to new situations. But without a human DM none of that can happen; only things specifically programmed are allowed. So you'll never get times when a wizard can come up with a novel application of a rarely-used spell to solve a problem.

That's an issue with cRPGs in general and one of the ways in which a cRPG are worse than playing with other people. (There are also lots of ways in which cRPGs are better than playing with other people this isn't an attack on cRPGs). But, yeah, versatility is deprecated and being a one trick pony with a very powerful trick is emphasized.
Naked Granny 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:05 
引用自 Dixon Sider
Even then, you are going to be missing out on a lot of important spells. About 75% of the spells at each level are INCREDIBLY useful at the time you level up to get them on unfair.

Yes you can heighten, but you will be missing out on too many current spells. Its not the missing past spells that haunts sorcerer. It's the missing current level spells.

No wizard can cast *all* the spells. It doesn't matter how many you know, you can only pick a few to prepare. And if you prepare a different one in each slot, that doesn't help you much because in any given excursion, you won't use half of them since the situation they would be useful for just won't come up.

Like if you never meet any undead, it doesn't matter that you had that one command undead spell prepared. Or contrarywise, if you do meet a lot of undead, you will wish you had more than one prepped.

If you're relying on having played the game already to know what's ahead, that's literally just cheating and isn't a valid argument in favor of wizard. In fact it's the opposite: if you need to cheat to make wizard a valid pick, that's proof that the class sucks.

And I flat out do not agree with your assessment that there's lot of useful spells. There just really are not. There's a few variations of Web, there's one Slow and Displacement, and lots of different colors of fireball and that's about it.

Basically, if you like wizard, play a witch and have hexes to use all day long. The only spells she's missing are resist energy and slow. Clerics get resist energy. Slow is harder to replace, but web is usually good enough as a substitute.
最后由 Naked Granny 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:07
Soul 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:06 
引用自 phantommail
引用自 Soul
Yes its very good
For example as sorcerer right now its possible to take 3 bloodlines, I took Gold Dragon, Red Dragon, and Brass Dragon. All of them get +1 dmg per die rolled in fire spells that do damage. So now for example my fireballs do 10d6+30. And since you can take elemental ascendency mythic fire spells bypass all damage It works great. I also took heighten and added fireball to almost every spell slot so im just a fireball machine gun now. Although I do keep one slot open for firebrand to make my allies immune to my own fire spells. Sorc is an even better blaster than ever.

As an alternative to the tripple dragon build you can do a double dragon + elemental build and use that elementals bloodline bonus to turn your spells all to the damage type of that element.

There's just more options than ever before.

And whats the point ? You might as well just play melee fighter if all you are doing is casting fireballs.

I mean cross-blooded sorc is nice and all but you know almost no spells especially if you taking the same bloodlines.

Because I like fire.
Dixon Sider 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:07 
引用自 Aunt Tony
No wizard can cast *all* the spells. It doesn't matter how many you know, you can only pick a few to prepare. And if you prepare a different one in each slot, that doesn't help you much because in any given excursion,
Thats why you load your last save and memorize different spells. It is much better than loading the last time you levelled up to learn different spells.
最后由 Dixon Sider 编辑于; 2021 年 9 月 20 日 下午 1:07
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发帖日期: 2021 年 9 月 20 日 上午 11:47
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