The power difference between "standard" builds and optimized builds is too high

[Creslin]

I feel like one of the major causes of the balance issues in this game is that the power difference between a "standard" monoclass build and an optimized build is just way too high. If you pit a standard monoclass midlevel melee build against an optimized build of the same level, both fully buffed, the optimized build will not just win. The standard build will be completely unable to even hit the optimized build, except on a natural 20. The difference between AC's of a standard build and an optimized one can be greater than 20. And in a game played with D20's, that puts the optimized build at a completely separate tier from the standard build.

This makes for a situation that's almost impossible to balance for. Because Owlcat has to make a game that is not impossible for a standard build, but isn't trivial for an optimized build. They try to mitigate this with difficulty levels, but it only helps so much. After all, there are a wide variety of builds, so Owlcat doesn't know if they are optimized unfair for 58AC or 42AC. Which is a massive difference on the D20 scale.

Ultimately, I think that all content in the game of a given level should be "doable" by a standard build. An optimized build should have an easier time of it, but it should never be "impossible" for a standard build to do.

Like, in Dark Souls for example, you can beat the game with literally no equipment, just punching everything. Or you can beat the game with the best equipment. Obviously the best gear makes it easier, but the power differential between the "worst' build and the "best" build isn't so extreme that it makes the game impossible to complete for the worst build.

I realize this is not an issue with this game, but is an issue with Pathfinder in general. But my feeling here is that it's better to change the PnP rules to be more in line for a video game experience. I mean in PnP, if someone tries to come in with a 1 monk, 1 witch, 1 sorcerer, X mutation warrior build, the DM can just tell them to get out of there with that crap because they are going to make the game horrible for the rest of the players. You can't do that in a video game.

[GunofBrixton]

So play on Story mode, just like the 'I just wanna RP not min max' players do on ttrpgs.

[DarkFenix]

The game is trivial for munchkin builds, and it is perfectly doable for monoclass builds. It just isn't friendly to dumpster fire builds, but that's the part where you're supposed to turn difficulty down to normal or lower.

[wirednight]

Yeah I think a lot of issue here is that people want to play "concept characters" on much higher difficultly levels, where the game isn't optimized for that, it's optimized for min-max.

Basically Owlcat decided to cater to all character choices. You can make a character designed around a cool concept, picking spells and abilities and classes that match the concept, or you can play min-max characters.

The problem is, that a lot of gamers have gotten used to being able to play on hard difficultly levels while just rolling their faces across the keyboard, so think they can do both concept characters on hard. It doesn't work that way, even in the PnP. A good DM knows is the game more centered around roleplaying, or more about a bunch of munchkins min-maxing their characters.

Owlcat made a way to cater to those play styles, but you can't do both.

That said... it certainly doesn't help that Owlcat doesn't know how to make a min-max character. All of their characters are concept. So you get really weak companions, who hold you back, making you rely on mercs at higher levels.

[urartu]

I did not finish this game yet but on Kingmaker I could do fairly well with pure Sorcerer on Hard and the build was nothing imaginative either. Multi-classing and going for stronger options will make the game easier yes but that is not a necessity. There is more to the game then having the best builds.

Maybe you should give an example, such as I had this standard build and the game became impossible from this point forward.

[Creslin]

Originally posted by GunofBrixton:

So play on Story mode, just like the 'I just wanna RP not min max' players do on ttrpgs.

I think you’re missing the point lol

[Sador]

There is a huge amount of customization in the difficulty levels. There is no reason why the hardest difficulty level should be easily doable by anyone with a random Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 2 / Rogue 2 / Witch 4 / Cleric 3 / Fighter 5 build with no real synergy, feats or decent equipment while it being the first time they're playing an RPG. That just means the people looking for a challenge won't find any. If people find the game too hard, lower the difficulty until it's comfortable. If it's too easy, raise it until it isn't.

I agree that the game should be fun for anyone of most skill levels (you're always going to need some basic kind of "how to play computer game" knowledge) but that's what the difficulty levels are for.

[Emygdius]

Originally posted by Unhelpful Bot:

I feel like one of the major causes of the balance issues in this game is that the power difference between a "standard" monoclass build and an optimized build is just way too high. If you pit a standard monoclass midlevel melee build against an optimized build of the same level, both fully buffed, the optimized build will not just win. The standard build will be completely unable to even hit the optimized build, except on a natural 20. The difference between AC's of a standard build and an optimized one can be greater than 20. And in a game played with D20's, that puts the optimized build at a completely separate tier from the standard build.

This makes for a situation that's almost impossible to balance for. Because Owlcat has to make a game that is not impossible for a standard build, but isn't trivial for an optimized build. They try to mitigate this with difficulty levels, but it only helps so much. After all, there are a wide variety of builds, so Owlcat doesn't know if they are optimized unfair for 58AC or 42AC. Which is a massive difference on the D20 scale.

Ultimately, I think that all content in the game of a given level should be "doable" by a standard build. An optimized build should have an easier time of it, but it should never be "impossible" for a standard build to do.

Like, in Dark Souls for example, you can beat the game with literally no equipment, just punching everything. Or you can beat the game with the best equipment. Obviously the best gear makes it easier, but the power differential between the "worst' build and the "best" build isn't so extreme that it makes the game impossible to complete for the worst build.

I realize this is not an issue with this game, but is an issue with Pathfinder in general. But my feeling here is that it's better to change the PnP rules to be more in line for a video game experience. I mean in PnP, if someone tries to come in with a 1 monk, 1 witch, 1 sorcerer, X mutation warrior build, the DM can just tell them to get out of there with that crap because they are going to make the game horrible for the rest of the players. You can't do that in a video game.

Its because they are literally taking a tabletop game and making it into a video game, of course things won't always translate well. Just like how in a video game, some abilities are next to useless, but in table top are SO vital for builds to work. It's because its a different medium and trying to adjust for it.

If you don't want to min max, honestly then play normal difficulty. You can do almost any build and be successful. Core and above are meant for people who know the system, who want to actually make a character as opposed to following a single line that tells them what to do, the game even warns you of this when you click core.

TLDR, don't complain about a complicated game being hard, it literally warns you everywhere. There are so many options you can tweak that if its unfun for you, maybe CRPGS are just not for you?

You can even write in your roleplay why the level dips make sense. For my swordmaster build who dipped into monk one and paladin 3 times, its simply because I was learning new techniques with the sword, and learning how to master my body instead of using armours to defend myself. (And that sweet, sweet crane style for fighting defensively. >:))

[Arden]

Originally posted by Unhelpful Bot:

Originally posted by GunofBrixton:

So play on Story mode, just like the 'I just wanna RP not min max' players do on ttrpgs.

I think you’re missing the point lol

There are difficulties on which even the optimized builds struggle. That's the reason both these difficulties and the minmaxed builds exist.

[thrythlind]

Yeah, there's a LOT of directions to go in 3.X games and that results in a wide swing of power levels which makes creating a good adventure for everybody is difficult. There's not much in the way of an easy work around.

In a ttrpg environment, the GM would just modify the story around the capabilities of their party. Another way for TTRPGs to do stuff is to employ narrative-based mechanics which allows for a broader range of concepts and power levels to function well enough in the same game.

[Creslin]

Okay guys lol, let me clarify something. I personally, only play min maxed builds. This post is not about my personal desire to play some kind of junk build and expect to do well.

The post is about how having a huge power difference between an optimized build and a standard build is bad from a game design perspective. It’s going to lead to a situation where the game feels extremely unbalanced (whether too easy or too hard) to most people.

[Emygdius]

Originally posted by thrythlind:

Yeah, there's a LOT of directions to go in 3.X games and that results in a wide swing of power levels which makes creating a good adventure for everybody is difficult. There's not much in the way of an easy work around.

In a ttrpg environment, the GM would just modify the story around the capabilities of their party. Another way for TTRPGs to do stuff is to employ narrative-based mechanics which allows for a broader range of concepts and power levels to function well enough in the same game.

This, kinda what I was getting at but you hit it way better. In TTRPG you have a GM who can react to party and adjust on the fly which can make virtually everything and everything viable for any journey. In a video game you literally can't do that as things are solid in number and only way to adjust is to adjust within your own settings.

[Emygdius]

Originally posted by Unhelpful Bot:

Okay guys lol, let me clarify something. I personally, only play min maxed builds. This post is not about my personal desire to play some kind of junk build and expect to do well.

The post is about how having a huge power difference between an optimized build and a standard build is bad from a game design perspective. It’s going to lead to a situation where the game feels extremely unbalanced (whether too easy or too hard) to most people.

That's literally the point of min maxing. Play virtually any video game and it is virtually the exact same, so your counter point makes zero sense. Min maxing is min maxing, its in the name. Of course there will be a HUGE disparity between min maxed and not builds, and again especially when a good chunk of mechanics cannot make it into a video game form for some classes, as they are too hard to program, don't make sense on the medium, ect ect ect.

If you think this is a problem, you clearly haven't played a single RPG in your life at all where it is again virtually the exact same.

[thrythlind]

Originally posted by Unhelpful Bot:

Okay guys lol, let me clarify something. I personally, only play min maxed builds. This post is not about my personal desire to play some kind of junk build and expect to do well.

The post is about how having a huge power difference between an optimized build and a standard build is bad from a game design perspective. It’s going to lead to a situation where the game feels extremely unbalanced (whether too easy or too hard) to most people.

It is pretty bad game design and this is one of the reasons that contributed to the bloat afflicting 3.X later in its design cycles.

Pathfinder was a semi-valiant attempt to address the wide range of difference between builds seen in 3.5 but it was only partially successful. The flaw was built in a bit too deeply into the system.

Actually.... 5e still has some of this flaw, but with bounded accuracy and some of the narrative mechanics in the system it should take longer for the bloat to get as bad as it eventually got in 3.X.

Should.

[Gaz O'D]

I get what OP is saying.

The higher difficulty game is optimised to favour builds that require you to dip here and dip there etc.

Like i can guess most people do the exact same character builds/dips/min-max when playing on the higher difficulty Its why you hear people saying ''dip monk for crane, youll need it!' 'etc

[Creslin]

Originally posted by Hemigidius:

Originally posted by Unhelpful Bot:

Okay guys lol, let me clarify something. I personally, only play min maxed builds. This post is not about my personal desire to play some kind of junk build and expect to do well.

The post is about how having a huge power difference between an optimized build and a standard build is bad from a game design perspective. It’s going to lead to a situation where the game feels extremely unbalanced (whether too easy or too hard) to most people.

That's literally the point of min maxing. Play virtually any video game and it is virtually the exact same, so your counter point makes zero sense. Min maxing is min maxing, its in the name. Of course there will be a HUGE disparity between min maxed and not builds, and again especially when a good chunk of mechanics cannot make it into a video game form for some classes, as they are too hard to program, don't make sense on the medium, ect ect ect.

No, no it isn’t lol. Go ahead, load up any FromSoftware game. Play it once with a normal build, and once with an optimized build.

You will find that you can beat the game with both. It’s just a bit easier with the optimized build.

Contrast this to pathfinder where content for an optimized build is literally impossible with a standard build.