Too much spell resistance

[Daaki]

This Spell resistance thing seems to be kinda ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Why do casters have to get through 2 defensive layers (spell resistance and ac or saving throw) with a limited resource while any normal attack from martials only has to go through one?
Not to mention the martials like a fighter archer just does straight up the same or even more damage so I don´t get why this is a thing.

[Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Ser Soapy Gudness:

Publicado originalmente por Black Hammer:

Spell resistance is a badly designed mechanic introduced to try and counter the overwhelming power curve of casters.

The issue is that normally spell resistance is a static number with very little variance, and is rare for most creatures to obtain.

Owlcats methodology for scaling encounters means that you never get to a point where you can comfortably cast against SR unless you are specce'd specifically to beat it.

Demons pretty much ALL have SR, it's not something owlcat invented. You can see that, in the manual, a Derakni has SR 21, Gribileth SR 22, Babau SR 17, Glabrezu SR 24, etc. They largely have the same SR in the game, except that demons with Mythic levels tend to have a bit more, which is understandable.

SR is something demons have. It's part of why they are terrifying in the lore; magic just slips over them. If you know you're going to be fighting demons, you SHOULD spec into it, that's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point.

[Anaztazioch]

Publicado originalmente por Blue:

Publicado originalmente por Anaztazioch:

Agree and the flavor is understood. But this is exactly The ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Game FORCES you to save scum and replay it. You need to know in advance EACH encounter and pre-buff and pre-memorise spells and pre-rest. If you dont do that you waste turn time, spell slots, potions, time and get fed up with the games ♥♥♥♥.

Also, how hard is it to make certain things ALWAYS ACTIVE ? Like relic that makes all allies items cold iron, why must i ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ re-use it everythime i see it suddenly turned off ? sometimes it on rest, sometimes on map change. And how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ difficult is to FORCE my paladin to ALLWAYS mount a ride, every rest i have to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ manually click it to mount op. this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ beyond undestanding.

The auto turn-off after reload is super annoying, but I'm not sure I agree with SR being bad mechanics. I mean, I guess it can be if you're new to Pathfinder, but high level demons have high SR, that's kinda their thing. So when you add mythic levels on top, their SR can be really high. If the campaign was against other types of enemies, it wouldn't be nearly as large an issue.

Knowing this though, any offensive spellcaster *HAS* to take all the spell pen feats, and wear the robes, rings, etc that add to it. It's annoying, but that's part of fighting demons, even in a non-mythic setting. Given how easy it is to increase spell pen, I'm not sure what your complaint is exactly. You can get up to +30 spell pen without too much trouble, and around +40 if you really focus on it. 30 spell pen is enough to overcome everything in the game except maybe 5 or 6 mobs, and even then you'll have 80% chances.

So, just build for spell pen on your offensive caster, it's that simple. Demons are resistant to magic in the Pathfinder universe, that's just how it is. Legendary demon lords are known to be practically immune to magic, so the only reason you can cast spells at them in the first place are your mythic levels.

I understand all that, but the problem lies elsewhere.
you have limited spells, in real-time its not that much of an issue. But with the coplexity, which is oportunity attacks, plethora of cc, enemy dying and how AI puts your companions, automoving into AOE range i dont like this. It was difficult to keep allies away from friendly fire in Baldurs Gate, but here its so freaking hectic i dont like real-time.

Turn based tough, losing a turn for a spell that does NOTHING due to DC or res, is really terrible design. The trade off is too much.

My archers (Lann and succubus) shoot at this moment 4 and 5 attacks, they can deal about 80 damage every turn. And now i dont have any single target spells outside touch attacks... now touch attack for mage that has no +attack from weapon and feats, use only Dex to land vs 40something AC, than pierce through res, than do DCs... mage is ♥♥♥♥ for single target, even with full ring/robe its AOE king and terrible, near useless in boss fights, i cant even use my angelic damage ability as it misses and enemy has concealment... like 50% on Xantir.

[Thrax]

Publicado originalmente por Blue:

Publicado originalmente por Ser Soapy Gudness:

The issue is that normally spell resistance is a static number with very little variance, and is rare for most creatures to obtain.

Owlcats methodology for scaling encounters means that you never get to a point where you can comfortably cast against SR unless you are specce'd specifically to beat it.

Demons pretty much ALL have SR, it's not something owlcat invented. You can see that, in the manual, a Derakni has SR 21, Gribileth SR 22, Babau SR 17, Glabrezu SR 24, etc. They largely have the same SR in the game, except that demons with Mythic levels tend to have a bit more, which is understandable.

SR is something demons have. It's part of why they are terrifying in the lore; magic just slips over them. If you know you're going to be fighting demons, you SHOULD spec into it, that's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point.

SR is normal for Outsiders, and specific creatures. But a high caster level pretty much negates SR for half the roster of demons. Removing SR from demons would be stupid, it is intrinsic to them. I like SR, and I think a lot of DM's don't understaned how potent a defense it is.
It's an issue with Mythic scaling, and Owlcats approach to balancing encounters towards 6+ optimized characters working in tandem.

Part of the issue is you get lots of choices for making a party, but there are an overwhelming amount of poor choices because of the nature of the campaign. It's like choosing a ranger, and picking goblins or orcs as a favored enemy.

[Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Ser Soapy Gudness:

Publicado originalmente por Blue:

Demons pretty much ALL have SR, it's not something owlcat invented. You can see that, in the manual, a Derakni has SR 21, Gribileth SR 22, Babau SR 17, Glabrezu SR 24, etc. They largely have the same SR in the game, except that demons with Mythic levels tend to have a bit more, which is understandable.

SR is something demons have. It's part of why they are terrifying in the lore; magic just slips over them. If you know you're going to be fighting demons, you SHOULD spec into it, that's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point.

SR is normal for Outsiders, and specific creatures. But a high caster level pretty much negates SR for half the roster of demons. Removing SR from demons would be stupid, it is intrinsic to them. I like SR, and I think a lot of DM's don't understaned how potent a defense it is.
It's an issue with Mythic scaling, and Owlcats approach to balancing encounters towards 6+ optimized characters working in tandem.

Part of the issue is you get lots of choices for making a party, but there are an overwhelming amount of poor choices because of the nature of the campaign. It's like choosing a ranger, and picking goblins or orcs as a favored enemy.

I'd say you'd have a point if the Mythic Spell Penetration feat didn't exist... It counters whatever boost demons with Mythic levels have to their SR just fine. I'm playing an Azata Sorcerer, and with just wearing the spell pen robes and the gloves that also add +4 to ranged touch attacks (no-brainer for a Sorc), I think the only mob against which I failed an SR check was Playful Darkness (he resisted a few rays, 2 out of 9 IIRC).

I mean yeah, there is a feat tax if you want to fight demons with magic, but as a pure caster, it's not like you're starved for magical feats. Spell focus, Spell Pen and a few metamagic feats are all you need to be fully online.

[Tech Enthusiast]

So, which magical rays are we talking about here that are worth it?
HITTING demons with magic is not an issue with all the perks, as most have noticed,... but I personally don't see why hitting with a few dozen damage is worth it, when any other class can do 10x that.

Some have talked about several hundred damage rays tho. I wonder which spell that is, or which feat combo allows that. The most damage I get is with Finger of Death that does level x10 damage pretty much all the time, since saves are rare with all the feats.

[Artisan Alex]

I think the big damage ray spells are the ones that pop off multiple rays as you gain levels.

Scorching ray goes off 4-5 times, and there are a few items that add damage to fire spells (eg. a belt that adds 2d6 unholy damage to a fire spell, it goes off on each ray). I've seen each of the rays hitting for 50ish damage, and I'm definitely not a top tier rules breaker.

Putting this on an MC Azata would get pretty nuts

[Tyler Durden]

Publicado originalmente por Artisan Alex:

I think the big damage ray spells are the ones that pop off multiple rays as you gain levels.

Scorching ray goes off 4-5 times, and there are a few items that add damage to fire spells (eg. a belt that adds 2d6 unholy damage to a fire spell, it goes off on each ray). I've seen each of the rays hitting for 50ish damage, and I'm definitely not a top tier rules breaker.

Putting this on an MC Azata would get pretty nuts

Ray spells with arcane trickster that adds sneak attack damage can be ridiculously powerful as well

[Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Tech Enthusiast:

So, which magical rays are we talking about here that are worth it?
HITTING demons with magic is not an issue with all the perks, as most have noticed,... but I personally don't see why hitting with a few dozen damage is worth it, when any other class can do 10x that.

Some have talked about several hundred damage rays tho. I wonder which spell that is, or which feat combo allows that. The most damage I get is with Finger of Death that does level x10 damage pretty much all the time, since saves are rare with all the feats.

You can easily do 150+ damage per cast of Empowered Scortching Rays, and around 250+ damage per cast of Hellfire rays.

They are low-ish level spells too (2 and 6), so you can use them with the Sorcerous mythic feat that allows a spell as quick-cast after rolling initiative, meaning you can fire two spells on your first turn. They use ranged touch attacks, so they'll pretty much always hit. You can also add sneak attacks to each ray if you spec into arcane trickster, which adds a good 50% damage.

People unfamiliar with Pathfinder fall into the trap of thinking that melee is better, because early on, it is. Casters get way more powerful than any melee build by mid-to-end-game though, having access to spells that can instantly kill a roomful of 15 mythic demons, or cause thousands of damage in a single round. Not to mention CC, buffs and other advantages.

Rays aren't even a caster's best choice, just a decent weapon against tough bosses that aren't weak to anything else, like Playful Darkness. Typically, I find spells like Phantasmal Web, Phantasmal Killer, Weird and Wail of the Banshee or even Mass Hold Person to be more effective. Why bother fighting those annoying Blackwater cyborgs when you can just Phantasmal Killer them dead with a single spell.

[Tech Enthusiast]

That sounds nice and all, but I am using a main Lich caster and get more damage per cast with non ray spells. Easily hitting 500damage as well with 5+ targets. And this is without any items boosting it or meta magic.

This does not change the fact that I can cast this a few times a day tho. And before I can cast this AoE, the archers will have killed 3/5 enemies.

Yeah, magic can do big numbers... but it is limited in uses per day. You never know what is around the corner, so wasting it on every encounter seems silly. I would have to rest every 3-5 encounters, rather than going 10-15 or more.

A few mobs have crazy AC and my Lich can obliterate those... and I love him for that... but that's about it. Buffing and killing the Playful Darkness of the world. Usually backburner and crossbow attacks for most fights.

[Takichi]

+45 Spell Penetration lvl 20 Wizard, with Feats, 30+ DC on Spells(depending on Myth Path and Feats chosen).... I really got 0 Idea what you are talkin bout.

[Soul]

What we need is the respec options to work so people can fix the mistakes they introducei nto their builds during the learning curve this game has. Not having respec working is extremely punishing to new players and frankly anyone that makes a mistake leveling their character. And that's before even considering that a lot of abilities / mythic path stuff is flat out broken and tanks plans people have for their builds.

[Takichi]

Publicado originalmente por Soul:

What we need is the respec options to work so people can fix the mistakes they introducei nto their builds during the learning curve this game has. Not having respec working is extremely punishing to new players and frankly anyone that makes a mistake leveling their character.

Yes Please.... I lost some Lich Effects, because u can dispel them xDDD cant get them Back without Respec, but it doesnt work properly xD

[Blue]

Publicado originalmente por Tech Enthusiast:

That sounds nice and all, but I am using a main Lich caster and get more damage per cast with non ray spells. Easily hitting 500damage as well with 5+ targets. And this is without any items boosting it or meta magic.

This does not change the fact that I can cast this a few times a day tho. And before I can cast this AoE, the archers will have killed 3/5 enemies.

Yeah, magic can do big numbers... but it is limited in uses per day. You never know what is around the corner, so wasting it on every encounter seems silly. I would have to rest every 3-5 encounters, rather than going 10-15 or more.

A few mobs have crazy AC and my Lich can obliterate those... and I love him for that... but that's about it. Buffing and killing the Playful Darkness of the world. Usually backburner and crossbow attacks for most fights.

I don't really get this. Starting from the end of act 3 and onwards, just autoing through fights doesn't work for me anymore. The enemies are too powerful, and their AC is too high for them to just die in a round or two from real-time auto-attacks. My sorc needs to intervene, as the fights are too tough to just rely on my frontline and archers. I have 12 casts of lvl 2 rays, plus 10 of lvl 3 empowered rays, 8 casts of Phantasmal Killer, then various other slots that I use metamagic on/off, phantasmal web, disintegrate, finger of death, icy prison, etc. I typically use around 50 spells before I rest, and that's enough that by that time I'm out of healing and I need to rest anyway.

[Tech Enthusiast]

Publicado originalmente por Blue:

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I don't really get this. Starting from the end of act 3 and onwards, just autoing through fights doesn't work for me anymore. The enemies are too powerful, and their AC is too high for them to just die in a round or two from real-time auto-attacks. My sorc needs to intervene, ...

Let that Sorc intervene with buffs.
You can buff STR, DEX, Attack, Weapon Boni etc.
With Mythic feats you can let almost every buff last 24 HOURS.

My Archers have +30 to +50 on their hits. So they even hit the playful darkness in theory (I did kill it much sooner with an army of summons and unresistable spells tho).
Lenn has 8 Attacks per round at this point. Each shot is doing 50 damage without a crit and 150-180 with a crit. Dela is sneak attacking with the bow for the same numbers. The rogue is sneak attacking even when other people hit a target.

If I buff the melees and archer, I still have enough spells to overcome those crazy AC enemies. But as I progress, even 55 AC means nothing to my archers. So many feats and abilities that negate the AC, so many buffs that make them hit like a truck.

One Tank with 60AC is soaking the enemy hits, one rogue is sneak attacking everything that gets hit by others and 3 archer devastate the field. My main is a lich that is mainly buffing and keeps summons and unresistable spells in reserve for emergencies... a healer is basically a buffer that heals every 5th fight, if it is needed at all. At around level 14ish I stopped needing heals, since fights got won before anything hit me.

But sure, you always have that one fight with that one enemy that just needs a spell to deal with. I get that. And that is what my main toon is doing as a Lich. He is dealing with those threats.
The Archers just autofight 90% of the way since they have 15-20 buffs on at all times.

I could use the spell slots to cast a ray, nuke or whatever... but buffing archers just feels so OP that I hardly feel the need to cast a damaging spell.

[Ewaterfield80]

Publicado originalmente por Mako Kilo:

Publicado originalmente por phadin:

Ahh, as you say, SR should be usually 10+HD, but thats exactly the problem with their inflated overtuned opponents. Their levels/hit dice are obscene, and that in turn gives them obscene SR. The SR standard is such that a wizard fighting an equal level opponent will have a 50% chance of affecting them with a spell. When our opponets are 10 levels above us, that becomes nearly a 0% chance. Spell penetration feats can only help so much. When my level 10 party fought the level 25 dragon, I didn't even bother hitting it with spells, even with all the spell penetration feats (including mythic). +17 vs SR 35? no.

The big error in how they tune enemies comes down to hiking up those hit dice or adding a bunch of class levels. There is quite a bit in Pathfinder that is tuned to HD, including the effects of some spells like Sleep or Blasphemy. Those spells in an overtuned game like this become useless for a player to use, and potentially devestating in the hands of the enemy against you. A demonic cleric with blasphemy 10 levels above you can and will kill your entire party in one casting. You can't even use the spell against something higher HD then you. This is made worse because Hit Dice (and things that depend on it like SR) are NOT affected by the difficulty slider. Even on the easiest difficulty, that level 18 demonic cleric meeting your level 8 party will still demolish you with one spell.

just choose the mythic element feat, it ignores all of that. Do i miss something here?

Not sure if anyone has said this yet since i haven't viewed the entire discussion but Elemental Resistances and Spell Resistance are two different things.

Elemental Resistance works like damage reduction, so the Mythic Element would bypass the damage reduction but it still needs to beat Spell Resistance or it doesn't do anything.