Why is the game so buggy so long after release??

[Korgz]

I have been playing as a brand new player for about 220 hours on Core difficulty and have encountered countless bugs. A small sample:

Playing as an elemental specialist metamagic feats do not apply correctly to split damage spells (they only apply to the first damage type). This means when you hit level 15 your damage actually decreases.

Charge often doesn't trigger battles correctly. Has happened 10-20 times so far. You use a charge to start a battle and the character moves a few steps and then just stops and loses their initiative round turn.

The new Volley feat is outright broken and completely worthless. I had in trigger about 10 times in all of act 3, 4 and 5. Two feat choices for something completely broken. Wonderful!!

Carnivorous crystals. I don't even know where to start. The split on critical ability is supposed to half their CURRENT HP, instead it reduces the maximum HP by half and heals them to full HP. Subsequent splits do not even half the HP, it just spawns two at full health. The subsonic hum ability says DC 22 in the tooltip but is actually 40 and even worse rather than having immunity (per creature) after 1 round the hum can be reapplied with any failed save. Additionally, the petrification can occur even after successful saves.

Sometimes kills give no xp. This is not a display problem the actual xp does not increase. Less of an issue given how much xp the game throws at you.

Enemies seem incapable of taking 5-foot steps or the AI is just plain broken. Most encounters that need a tank are made trivial by just 5 foot stepping away from the enemy and they will only get a single attack per round (most melee enemies except for those with reach attacks). This made encounters like playful darkness trivial.

[Razer]

Mostly due to extra content, features and classes added. You can't look at the originalrelease date and pin that as the point of release. There's been many more releases since then and some of the things you mentioned are more recent issues.

Have you reported them? Alt+B in the game. Make sure you do.

Also how did you get volley fire to work? I haven't been able to get it to work at all.

[Levi G]

Game is totally infested with bugs, some exists for years. You will encounter bugs with every class choise or gameplay, even for my last attempt of vanilla Palladin/Angel playthrough i encountered tonns of bugs, many of them existing 2 years ago. That's usual situation for owlcats games, bugs will never be cleaned.
That's why if you really want to play owlcats game it's better to buy it 2 years after "release" on heavy discounts otherwise you'll be just free bugtester.

[Korgz]

Originally posted by Razer:

Also how did you get volley fire to work? I haven't been able to get it to work at all.

I had it in the rare case where I had 2 archers standing next to each other and firing and 2 different enemies who were also standing next to each other and the shooting had to go over 2 rounds - WHICH IS BASICALLY NEVER!!!! Maybe in the early stages of the game but no one would have volley then and by the time you have it the trash mobs rarely survive more than 1 round of attacks with such a rare requirement set.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Levi G:

Game is totally infested with bugs, some exists for years. You will encounter bugs with every class choise or gameplay, even for my last attempt of vanilla Palladin/Angel playthrough i encountered tonns of bugs, many of them existing 2 years ago. That's usual situation for owlcats games, bugs will never be cleaned.
That's why if you really want to play owlcats game it's better to buy it 2 years after "release" on heavy discounts otherwise you'll be just free bugtester.

While I do think it'd be good for Owlcat to invest in better testing capabilities, WotR is one of the most complex games ever made by any game studio ever and likely went over their heads.

That said I hardly encounter any bugs while playing and I have completed the game a few times. Most bugs you do run into are very minor and don't affect your game's enjoyment at all. Which is what matters. The game was launched through kickstarter so it stands to reason there's a bit more leaning on fans and players from that perspective. You're being very harsh on this game because you lack the backstory of it.

Originally posted by Korgz:

Originally posted by Razer:

Also how did you get volley fire to work? I haven't been able to get it to work at all.

I had it in the rare case where I had 2 archers standing next to each other and firing and 2 different enemies who were also standing next to each other and the shooting had to go over 2 rounds - WHICH IS BASICALLY NEVER!!!! Maybe in the early stages of the game but no one would have volley then and by the time you have it the trash mobs rarely survive more than 1 round of attacks with such a rare requirement set.

Are you saying the archers need to stay next to eachother as well? The feat does not state this. I've tested this with late game demons (which can get very sturdy) but I was not able to trigger it. But even if it would work, the micromanagement would be insane. The payoff is 0 even if it does work as intended.

[Levi G]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Levi G:

Game is totally infested with bugs, some exists for years. You will encounter bugs with every class choise or gameplay, even for my last attempt of vanilla Palladin/Angel playthrough i encountered tonns of bugs, many of them existing 2 years ago. That's usual situation for owlcats games, bugs will never be cleaned.
That's why if you really want to play owlcats game it's better to buy it 2 years after "release" on heavy discounts otherwise you'll be just free bugtester.

While I do think it'd be good for Owlcat to invest in better testing capabilities, WotR is one of the most complex games ever made by any game studio ever and likely went over their heads.

That said I hardly encounter any bugs while playing and I have completed the game a few times. Most bugs you do run into are very minor and don't affect your game's enjoyment at all. Which is what matters. The game was launched through kickstarter so it stands to reason there's a bit more leaning on fans and players from that perspective. You're being very harsh on this game because you lack the backstory of it.

I know this studio from KIngmaker and WAS very positive on them, as i liked this game and WOTR/RT too. but their incapability to test and make at least 80% bugfree games are truly embarrassing. And bugs are not minor, when you just loose or need to reload because suddenly your skills just don't work. Even vanilla Archons Aura on Commander Palladin is causing combat breaking bugs (end of turn when reaching enemies after AA check was done) is totally ruining last atzlanty (ironman) mode. So, for me its still unfinished game with many broken mechanics i cant play at full. That's why after disaster with WOTR being still unfinished after 2+ years of release, for me owlcat is a discounted studio for buginfested games. Luckily, we have other studios making good and tested games.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Levi G:

Originally posted by Razer:

While I do think it'd be good for Owlcat to invest in better testing capabilities, WotR is one of the most complex games ever made by any game studio ever and likely went over their heads.

That said I hardly encounter any bugs while playing and I have completed the game a few times. Most bugs you do run into are very minor and don't affect your game's enjoyment at all. Which is what matters. The game was launched through kickstarter so it stands to reason there's a bit more leaning on fans and players from that perspective. You're being very harsh on this game because you lack the backstory of it.

I know this studio from KIngmaker and WAS very positive on them, as i liked this game and WOTR/RT too. but their incapability to test and make at least 80% bugfree games are truly embarrassing. And bugs are not minor, when you just loose or need to reload because suddenly your skills just don't work. Even vanilla Archons Aura on Commander Palladin is causing combat breaking bugs (end of turn when reaching enemies after AA check was done) is totally ruining last atzlanty (ironman) mode. So, for me its still unfinished game with many broken mechanics i cant play at full. That's why after disaster with WOTR being still unfinished after 2+ years of release, for me owlcat is a discounted studio for buginfested games. Luckily, we have other studios making good and tested games.

I don't disagree with the part where they need to test better. But as I said the game is likely the most complex in existence so I can't really fault them for that when tripple A companies fail to create a bug free game with 10% of the complexity.

[Vertigo]

Well, I still remember the stolen Lands DLC from Kingmaker. Despite using the option to continue between parties, the game kept me on the same seed (meaning I had to fight that stinking boss with all the extra animals around her every time. I later learned that I had to end the game, start a new one, and choose to load that previous save. I stopped playing KM after that. I don't know how such an egregious bug got past QA.

As for WotR: I respect that trying to convert a P&P game to a CRPG is a monumental task. On the other hand, the expectation is that they do it properly. It can become an issue when the monsters in this game are buffed well beyond their P&P counterparts. Since Owlcat made this to be more accessible to new people, I can only imagine how bad it can be if someone picks a bugged class and does not realize that it is not working properly. I played through part of a core run with a broken primalist, and it was not fun.

It also needs said that any new content will assure that something in older content breaks. It has been that way with every release. I could not finish the final fight of LoN of day one, and that's when I decided to stop buying everything at release from them.

I criticize Owlcat for wanting to head up multiple projects when they cannot keep what they have fined tuned. This is why I end up buying their products several patches down the road when they are inevitably on sale.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Well, I still remember the stolen Lands DLC from Kingmaker. Despite using the option to continue between parties, the game kept me on the same seed (meaning I had to fight that stinking boss with all the extra animals around her every time. I later learned that I had to end the game, start a new one, and choose to load that previous save. I stopped playing KM after that. I don't know how such an egregious bug got past QA.

As for WotR: I respect that trying to convert a P&P game to a CRPG is a monumental task. On the other hand, the expectation is that they do it properly. It can become an issue when the monsters in this game are buffed well beyond their P&P counterparts. Since Owlcat made this to be more accessible to new people, I can only imagine how bad it can be if someone picks a bugged class and does not realize that it is not working properly. I played through part of a core run with a broken primalist, and it was not fun.

It also needs said that any new content will assure that something in older content breaks. It has been that way with every release. I could not finish the final fight of LoN of day one, and that's when I decided to stop buying everything at release from them.

I criticize Owlcat for wanting to head up multiple projects when they cannot keep what they have fined tuned. This is why I end up buying their products several patches down the road when they are inevitably on sale.

Issue is you can't upkeep a single game forever with patches and make no money out of it. You have to start new projects to make more money. Bugfixes doesn't earn any money.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Razer:

Issue is you can't upkeep a single game forever with patches and make no money out of it. You have to start new projects to make more money. Bugfixes doesn't earn any money.

True, but this also needs said. Consistently releasing buggy products will result in a reputation and less people buying. Unless you are a really wealthy studio like Bethesda, you cannot afford people modding or fixing your games for you.

I'd argue that a fine tuned game with little to no bugs is going to sell better than ones that do. It also will go without saying that if a company has a reputation for bugs, then people will expect their multiple products to also have bug issues.

I want Owlcat to succeed. I like their stuff, and I have more hours in WotR then both POEs (when I have beat POE2 at least 4 times), BG3, and several other games of mine combined. It's a shame that their QA turns people away (which means less money for them).

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

Originally posted by Razer:

Issue is you can't upkeep a single game forever with patches and make no money out of it. You have to start new projects to make more money. Bugfixes doesn't earn any money.

True, but this also needs said. Consistently releasing buggy products will result in a reputation and less people buying. Unless you are a really wealthy studio like Bethesda, you cannot afford people modding or fixing your games for you.

I'd argue that a fine tuned game with little to no bugs is going to sell better than ones that do. It also will go without saying that if a company has a reputation for bugs, then people will expect their multiple products to also have bug issues.

I want Owlcat to succeed. I like their stuff, and I have more hours in WotR then both POEs (when I have beat POE2 at least 4 times), BG3, and several other games of mine combined. It's a shame that their QA turns people away (which means less money for them).

Oh I definitely agree, but Owlcat kind of went over their heads and created products they weren't actually capable of creating with the quality they deserve. That said the products are created with a lot of love for the franchise/system and that's worth something as well. It's not like they kind of just half a$$ed it as some people would make it out to be.

[mbradtke]

owlcat is a veryvery good company, they do care for their products and constantly deliver patches and they make great games which are complex and therefore will also have some bugs, you can not really blame em for it and there are many worse companies which just do not care, release their games and dont patch em properly, f.e Ubisoft, i would always buy their games

[mk11]

A lot of the bugs are things where the game doesn't interpret the tabletop rules correctly.

With games that define their own rule-set I expect it is easier since you can just redefine a rule to match the implemented behaviour or players don't even know it is a bug. It is also the case that WOTR makes most of the calculations and rules visible so you can spot bugs, whereas many games do it behind the scenes and you have no idea there is a bug.

[Drake]

People just don't understand the sheer amount of mechanics that is in the game. Correcting some of the bugs is a very complicated exercice, since any change can cause other bugs elsewhere.

Porting TTRPG rules as complex as those of pathfinder requires very strong maths and software engineering skills, as you need to abstract a lot of concepts and manipulate a lot of different types of objects. And I'm not even talking about some special rules that contradict the main rule engine. It's very easy to write an obscure rule on paper and have a GM interprete it, but when you have to impletement it in a video game engine, it can become ugly really fast.

This is a nightmare to do. It's like swiss watchmaking. And the fact that you have to take turn based and real time into account for everything doesn't help.

If anyone thinks they can do better, please by any means try it, you'll see how how quickly it becomes unmanageable. It's a miracle the game actually holds together. There is a reason why there are so few games like this, because it's a monumental task.
Designing game systems like skyrim or dragon age is child's play compared to WOTR.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Drake:

People just don't understand the sheer amount of mechanics that is in the game. Correcting some of the bugs is a very complicated exercice, since any change can cause other bugs elsewhere.

Porting TTRPG rules as complex as those of pathfinder requires very strong maths and software engineering skills, as you need to abstract a lot of concepts and manipulate a lot of different types of objects. And I'm not even talking about some special rules that contradict the main rule engine. It's very easy to write an obscure rule on paper and have a GM interprete it, but when you have to impletement it in a video game engine, it can become ugly really fast.

This is a nightmare to do. It's like swiss watchmaking. And the fact that you have to take turn based and real time into account for everything doesn't help.

If anyone thinks they can do better, please by any means try it, you'll see how how quickly it becomes unmanageable. It's a miracle the game actually holds together. There is a reason why there are so few games like this, because it's a monumental task.
Designing game systems like skyrim or dragon age is child's play compared to WOTR.

I get your sentiment, but we have to also be realistic. Just because I like Owlcat and their work does not mean that they can get a pass on an area they genuinely need to improve. If people aren't willing to have these conversations, then things will never change.

When I buy a car, I am buying a product with my money. I am under the expectation that the company has put time and money into ensuring the product is correctly designed, engineered, and tested. I cannot have brakes that only work part of the time. I cannot have fuses that don't provide energy to their components. When these million (if not billion) dollar companies mess up and need to recall/adjust things, people aren't sitting around saying "I like (car model X) so we should give them a pass." We expect them to fix things at their own cost. Period. That's why so many products have warranties.

Also, the "If you haven't done it, don't criticize" point is an asinine and irrelevant argument. I don't have to be a five star chef to know when food is cooked badly. I don't have to be a professional singer/musician/actor to realize when a song/performance is off/bad.

Here's the other tough pill to swallow. Owlcat CHOSE to make a game based on a very complex system. They also crowdfunded US as consumers to help with making this product. In taking our money, they were effectively saying they were up to the task of doing so. This means that they have to use our money to make sure things are properly designed and tested. When Owlcat continually releases products that we funded that consistently require fixing and fine tuning, then we as consumers are within our right to be critical of how they are doing things.

It's also a bad look when they want to develop multiple other products when ALL of their major releases have had issues with bugs. Initial Kingmaker reviews mentioned bugs, Initial WotR reviews mentioned bugs, and RT reviews on release ALSO listed bugs as an issue. Look at the PINNED thread on this forum. It's for what to do when your game doesn't start. To think they are trying to tackle more projects tells me that they are stretching themselves far too thin.

I think people understand the difference between a game having some bugs (since older games do have some amusing good/bad bugs) and a game having gameplay seriously impacted due to some QA issues.

[ope84]

Originally posted by Drake:

People just don't understand the sheer amount of mechanics that is in the game. Correcting some of the bugs is a very complicated exercice, since any change can cause other bugs elsewhere.

Porting TTRPG rules as complex as those of pathfinder requires very strong maths

I agree that is a very complex system, but strong maths in pathfinder ruleset it's a ridiculous claim