Stacking question!

[mbradtke]

I've heard there have been some changes to transmutation/polymorph spells.
My question is:
Does "Transformation"(actual spell name) stack with "polymorph" labeled spells?
I was a bit confused about the difference between transmutation and polymorph but i think i got it now, polymorph is just a "tag" that some transmutation spells have and some do not.

Another question:
Can you only have one "polymorph" tag spell active at a given time?
I was thinking about stacking f.e dragonkind on a caster with transformation, first would be a size bonus(polymorph effect) and second one an enhancement bonus(no polymorph). So that should work.

Confusion:
It seems legendary proportions(no polymorph) would also stack with dragonkind(polymorph) and transformation(no polymorph) as well! BUT first 2 both add SIZE bonuses, or not?
Dragonkind spells state they adds a "polymorph/transmutation"(does this even exists ingame or wrong labeled?) bonus to attributes, is this a mistake? So normally they would stack but since dragonkind also add a size bonus, it makes no sense,

[Soul]

spells like ice body, fiery body, elemental body, dragonkind, frightful presence are considered polymorph spells and dont stack with each other...

but you can say use legendary proportions or enlarge person or reduce person on someone with ice body and their size will change.... thats because those are not considered polymorph spells.... just transformation spells...

[mbradtke]

Thank you for your reply!
Are there any problems with stacking spells that both increase the size?
I guess not?

[Soul]

Originally posted by mbradtke:

Thank you for your reply!
Are there any problems with stacking spells that both increase the size?
I guess not?

size stacking spells dont stack either....

like you cant have enlarge person and legendary proportions stack.... one cancels out the other just like with the polymorph spells...

so only 1 polymorph spell and 1 size transformation per character....

[hilburnashua]

According to the Pathfinder rules, spells that change a creature's size have no effect on a polymorphed creature. Last time I was playing you could stack Legendary Proportions with Gold Dragon shift for some pretty silly Strength. I think my dragon had a personal light load of 65,000lbs.

I remember a similar question came up not to long ago and I was saying that the Gold Dragon shifting and the Legendary Proportions shouldn't stack because they are both Polymorph effects (which doesn't work) and give a size bonus but I was corrected in that Legendary Proportions isn't a Polymorph spell. Took me a while to find the actual rule that disallows this stacking.

Here is the way it is actually worded in the CRB for Pathfinder
" In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by mbradtke:

Thank you for your reply!
Are there any problems with stacking spells that both increase the size?
I guess not?

No, they don't stack for actual size. You cannot stack Enlarge Person, Legendary Proportions and Frightful Aspect on a medium sized creature to become Colossal.

And they all give size bonuses so those won't stack either.

Or they didn't last time I played (other then the issue I noted above with Gold Dragon).

[pete3great]

All these questions can be summed up in one simple Pathfinder rule:

Bonuses from the same source don't stack. Two size bonuses? You only get the bigger one. Two enhancement bonuses? You only get the bigger one. Etc.

There are some exceptions, but they are so rare as to be meaningless.

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

According to the Pathfinder rules, spells that change a creature's size have no effect on a polymorphed creature. Last time I was playing you could stack Legendary Proportions with Gold Dragon shift for some pretty silly Strength. I think my dragon had a personal light load of 65,000lbs.

It's weird in WotR, though. You can absolutely cast enlarge on a shifter and get size bonuses, even if the model's size doesn't change (never been able to figure out if their reach changes).

[Immortal Reaver]

While the buffs effect do not stack if they do same thing, their individual bonuses might if they are different or are in exception (Natural, Dodge, untyped).

Like if you had Enlarge + Legedray Proportion + Frigthful Aspect.
All 3 give size bonuses to stats, and only the biggest will work (FA or LP, does not matter as they are same). But Frightful Aspect will also give you fear aura and Spell Resistance. And most importantly Natural Armor stacks, so this combination gives 12 AC and -2 AC due to size (so you get 10 AC).
Also only thing Enlarge in this combination would do is give -2 DEX penality, because LP and FA do not give penalities to DEX.

[Razer]

One annoying thing about polymorph effects is that the latest one will remove the previous one. So regardless of stat stacking, you can't have two polymorph effects active ever.

[mbradtke]

Thanks for the replies everyone (:
So natural armor is still stacking? I've read somewhere that natural AC should also not stack.

[Razer]

Originally posted by mbradtke:

Thanks for the replies everyone (:
So natural armor is still stacking? I've read somewhere that natural AC should also not stack.

Only untyped natural armor bonus stacks.

[climbingeastofwinter]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by mbradtke:

Thanks for the replies everyone (:
So natural armor is still stacking? I've read somewhere that natural AC should also not stack.

Only untyped natural armor bonus stacks.

That always struck me as funny. I thought natural armor *was* a type.

[Razer]

Originally posted by climbingeastofwinter:

Originally posted by Razer:

Only untyped natural armor bonus stacks.

That always struck me as funny. I thought natural armor *was* a type.

Yea it's weird. Unlike other bonusses, it uses a subtype rather than itself as a type. Enhancement to natural armor does not stack with itself, but it stacks with other sources.

It kinda makes sense for natural armor to stack, but it also makes the rules extra confusing.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by pete3great:

It's weird in WotR, though. You can absolutely cast enlarge on a shifter and get size bonuses, even if the model's size doesn't change (never been able to figure out if their reach changes).

It is also worth noting that this same effect applies if you have a Kitsune that has shifted into a human. They remain normal size but the bonuses do show on the character sheet.

Now that you mention it, I am unsure if reach is affected.

As for stacking, here is an unexpected one: the int bonus to AC from sword saint stacks with the one from duelist.