Natural weapons demon build

[EvilDonut]

So, i am once again starting a new build, lol!

This time i aim to go demon with natural weapons. I know that claws don't stack so i am going the ''stack every other attack'' path. In my intention, i would go 2 levels of vivisectionist for feral mutagen and 1 level of oracle for the wolfscarred thing, rest primalist with thiefling qlippoth spawn as stgarting race.

My question is: is it worth it to get 17th primalist level to get tireless rage? Or would it be more smarter to get some more vivisectionist levels to expand the duration of the mutagen?
I mean, tireless bloodrage is useful, but once you get limitless bloodrage you can just wait out the debuff or use a paladin's lay on hands to remove it

[EvilDonut]

Also, do vivisectionist and mutation fighter's mutagens stack? Might be worth it to do something like that, if that's the case

[leyasu888]

alchemist and mutagen warrior mutagens do not stack.

I think if you are going with Demon natural attacks then you might want to consider going rageshaper shifter since you will be shifting into a demon form instead of animal form later anyway so the penalty of losing the aspect forms from the archetype is negligible and i believe you should still be able to get the feat that gives you the iterative natural attacks stuff from the shifter class? I think the Kalavakus is the demon form with all the natural attacks

[Razer]

Bites don't stack. Natural attacks are limited to the limbs of your form. If you're looking for natural attacks then you're best off looking at classes that provide bonusses to natural attacks or have polymorph options.

Additional natural attacks from alchemy and race etc are lost during polymorph. The only exception is magic gore from demon mythic hero.

[Razer]

Originally posted by EvilDonut:

Ok, last question: will rageshaper ability turn ALL natural weapon attacks into slam attacks and add damage to each of them? 5 levels of it would totally be worth it, then

I think those slam attacks are limited to the rage, so that's not a great 5 level investment. Generally natural attacks don't change. I'm not sure about rage shaper, I've not played it.

[leyasu888]

Originally posted by Razer:

Bites don't stack. Natural attacks are limited to the limbs of your form. If you're looking for natural attacks then you're best off looking at classes that provide bonusses to natural attacks or have polymorph options.

Additional natural attacks from alchemy and race etc are lost during polymorph. The only exception is magic gore from demon mythic hero.

Technically you can sort of stack bite attacks as a shifter. When you get feat that makes one natural attack of your choice count as though it was a normal attack with weapon. So you could choose bite when you first get the feat, i think it is called shifter's fury or something like that, it will turn your bite attack into an attack that scales the number of attacks from it with BAB like a normal weapon. It is very different from the good old stacking umpteen different bite attacks from different sources but you do end up with an ungodly number of bite attacks even though they are just extra attacks from BAB lol, I think they should still work if you transform into a demon instead of a shifter animal form, never personally tried it before since i have not gone down the demon route in ages. In theory you should end up with like a ton of natural attacks since shifter is a full BAB class.

Alternatively if the OP does not mind doing his natural attacks not in a demon form, he can just go the normal shifter + wolf form + aspect of kalavakus combo,. It will basically trigger a bite loop where every attack is a wolf bite which triggers a trip CMC which if it succeeds will automatically give you a free attack which would be another wolf bite etc resulting in an infinite loop as long as you keep hitting and succeeding in the CMC. not that anything that you end up tripping is going to last very long though, with all the AOOs and penalties to their AC while the target is prone on the ground, no matter how powerful the victim is it is going to explode into little chunks very quickly lol.

[EvilDonut]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by EvilDonut:

Ok, last question: will rageshaper ability turn ALL natural weapon attacks into slam attacks and add damage to each of them? 5 levels of it would totally be worth it, then

I think those slam attacks are limited to the rage, so that's not a great 5 level investment. Generally natural attacks don't change. I'm not sure about rage shaper, I've not played it.

Yeah, i deleted the post because i noticed that only the attacks with limbs are affected by that. A pity, getting claws from basic shifter would be better then, IF they are affected by rage

[Razer]

Originally posted by leyasu888:

Originally posted by Razer:

Bites don't stack. Natural attacks are limited to the limbs of your form. If you're looking for natural attacks then you're best off looking at classes that provide bonusses to natural attacks or have polymorph options.

Additional natural attacks from alchemy and race etc are lost during polymorph. The only exception is magic gore from demon mythic hero.

Technically you can sort of stack bite attacks as a shifter. When you get feat that makes one natural attack of your choice count as though it was a normal attack with weapon. So you could choose bite when you first get the feat, i think it is called shifter's fury or something like that, it will turn your bite attack into an attack that scales the number of attacks from it with BAB like a normal weapon. It is very different from the good old stacking umpteen different bite attacks from different sources but you do end up with an ungodly number of bite attacks even though they are just extra attacks from BAB lol, I think they should still work if you transform into a demon instead of a shifter animal form, never personally tried it before since i have not gone down the demon route in ages. In theory you should end up with like a ton of natural attacks since shifter is a full BAB class.

Alternatively if the OP does not mind doing his natural attacks not in a demon form, he can just go the normal shifter + wolf form + aspect of kalavakus combo,. It will basically trigger a bite loop where every attack is a wolf bite which triggers a trip CMC which if it succeeds will automatically give you a free attack which would be another wolf bite etc resulting in an infinite loop as long as you keep hitting and succeeding in the CMC.

The wereshifter would fit best then.

[EvilDonut]

Actually, my two goals were to use natural attacks AND to stack demon rage with barbarian or primalist, so that's why i was considering dips.
Imho, i should take 11 levels of primalist, so that would leave me with 9 levels to gain more attacks. 3 of them in vivi sectionist, most likely, and 5-6 on a shifter i was thinking, so that i get claws even outside rage

[wizard1200]

I am currently playing a Traditional Monk 2 / Brown Fur Transmuter 4 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Eldritch Knight 10 (hard / solo) and the combination is amazing in my opinion, because at the beginning you get 2 unarmed attacks, 1 bite and many nice stat bonuses. Later you can use the dragonkind spells to polymorph into a dragon, which gives you a huge bonus to Strength and Constitution, because the Brown Fur Transmuter and Master Shapeshifter abilities affect these spells. A demon would provide additional stat bonuses, but i think that a lich is more useful, because with a merged spellbook you get the dragonkind spells sooner and Decaying Touch is great with the high number of natural attacks.