are high level spells kind of garbage on higher difficulties?

[rumpelstiltskin]

i'm looking at level 8 for instance, and don't even know what can be useful there. almost everything allows a save, and even mobs on unfair have 30+ saves, so even if you invest a buttload of feats into boosting dc, you'll get like 20% chance of landing them. there's a couple that give some immunities, and seamantle is personal, so could only be useful for solo warrior/wizard builds. only rays seem to be useful for dealing damage.

[Faray]

The best part about high level spells was metamagicing my rays. I'm sure the other spells work great if you invest in all the DCs for them, but it seems like more work than needed when you can just spam rays on core at least.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

Which hits one enemy, you know.....

Stormbolts are hitting several enemies only if your caster is surrounded by enemies. This isn't looking like a good and normal situation for me (melee spellcasters are another story).

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And again, Favourable Magic, damage die, potentially sneak attack damage (+more die), Potent Magic if Arcanist/Exploiter Wizard, etc. all make that damage calculation overly simplified.

No, they don't change anything as they're affecting all spells ~equally (we have VERY little spells dealing d4/d8 damage instead of d6).

This game frequently surrounds you with enemies; your caster will be surrounded in this game. And if you have a hearty front line and even rudimentary spell protections, getting Stormbolts off is not a problem.

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rumpelstiltskin:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

How are you computing your damage numbers? Stormbolts, for example, is 8 x 16 (128) max at level 16. With something like Favourable Magic you should be getting numbers on the high end. This is also around the time you're getting the Empower/Maximize/Quicken rods. You're also assuming no extra Electricity die from either Sorc bloodlines or equipment (Ambrosial Attire of Arcane Annihilation). Arcane Tricksters fare even better. These spells can also be Empowered naturally with Favorite Metamagic.

clearly i'm assuming no metamagic and no boosts from bloodlines, etc. rods have a very limited number of uses per day, and metamagic can't be applied to level 8 when you get it (except empowered+completely normal). but even small boosts here and there won't make it on par with rays, which at that stage can be quickened and multi-cast.

3 from Empower and 3 from Maximize is a good deal in my book. The game isn't over when you get level 8 spells, so Empowering them is relevant, and any committed blaster should have some form of damage dice boost. I'm not discounting rays btw, especially because I play ATs. Rays are frequently the answer, but they are not always the answer. They hit one (or two w/ Zippy Magic) enemy when things like Stormbolts or Chain Lightning w/ Zippy can hit everything within range. Depends on the encounter.

[corisai]

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

[Sotanaht]

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

Stormbolts are hitting several enemies only if your caster is surrounded by enemies. This isn't looking like a good and normal situation for me (melee spellcasters are another story).



No, they don't change anything as they're affecting all spells ~equally (we have VERY little spells dealing d4/d8 damage instead of d6).

This game frequently surrounds you with enemies; your caster will be surrounded in this game. And if you have a hearty front line and even rudimentary spell protections, getting Stormbolts off is not a problem.

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

It's pretty rare for more than one or two enemies to be within range of stormbolts. They all cluster around my melee characters and pets. My casters usually have to spend move actions and often entire turns just to get close enough to cast anything at all.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

Can you explain how Stormbolts is only able to trigger sneak attacks once per rest? That's not how Surprise Spells works.... And, yes, AT level 10....around the time when you get Stormbolts.

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sotanaht:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

This game frequently surrounds you with enemies; your caster will be surrounded in this game. And if you have a hearty front line and even rudimentary spell protections, getting Stormbolts off is not a problem.

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

It's pretty rare for more than one or two enemies to be within range of stormbolts. They all cluster around my melee characters and pets. My casters usually have to spend move actions and often entire turns just to get close enough to cast anything at all.

Not my experience at all (especially since enemies can spawn/fly behind your backline), but Expeditious Retreat (a lvl 1 spell) solves that mobility problem.

[dwarner]

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

Don't play AT. That's a P:K thing. Chip damage.

[dwarner]

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

Can you explain how Stormbolts is only able to trigger sneak attacks once per rest? That's not how Surprise Spells works.... And, yes, AT level 10....around the time when you get Stormbolts.

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

Devouring Lust has 6 charges. I was getting 4 maxxed per rest right after Blackwater on Daeran.

[dwarner]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sotanaht:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

This game frequently surrounds you with enemies; your caster will be surrounded in this game. And if you have a hearty front line and even rudimentary spell protections, getting Stormbolts off is not a problem.

And, yes, those things do directly change the damage potential of the spell, which is what we're discussing.

It's pretty rare for more than one or two enemies to be within range of stormbolts. They all cluster around my melee characters and pets. My casters usually have to spend move actions and often entire turns just to get close enough to cast anything at all.

Maybe try those crappy high level spells like Seamantle, Frightful, Ice Body, Winds of Vengeance, etc... so your caster isn't a sitting duck.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez dwarner:

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

Don't play AT. That's a P:K thing. Chip damage.

Chip damage? When ATs can dip into CB Sorc, get the Ambrosial Attire of Arcane Annihilation, and can trigger SAs on Mythic Spells? I don't think so.....

[rumpelstiltskin]

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

@rumpelstiltskin already answered to you - rays are free&unlimited source of SA for AT since level 0. While Stormbolts are able to get SA once per rest at level 10 AT.

Another issue - to bypass enemy immunity with Stormbolts you're either wasting feats or refuse yourself ability to use fire-based Scorching Ray (or delay efficiency of your caster by relying on electricity conversion bracers if they were fixed).

Can you explain how Stormbolts is only able to trigger sneak attacks once per rest? That's not how Surprise Spells works.... And, yes, AT level 10....around the time when you get Stormbolts.

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

surprise spells (according to the description) only works on flat-footed enemies, not when they are eligible for sneak attacks. so someone in melee will not trigger it. you can probably do it from invisibility, but it won't work on enemies with true seeing (and probably even see invis).
zippy magic is azata-only, so it's pretty niche. does it work for rays btw? if so, it's actually much more powerful with rays. you can get an extra ascendant element, sure, but it'll be at the cost of things like rupture restraints or last stand (since you'll also want abundant castings)

[corisai]

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

You can't have bloodlines both for fire and electricity. You're lacking Robe of Air*. You're lacking fire damage boosters.
Fire have more then enough AoE spells alone.

Początkowo opublikowane przez dwarner:

Maybe try those crappy high level spells like Seamantle, Frightful, Ice Body, Winds of Vengeance, etc... so your caster isn't a sitting duck.

AC still will be abysmal for higher difficulty. You can't make caster tanky enough without sacrificing it's blaster potential (Lich is a bit exception).

*C'mon. Past Enigma is irrelevant what're you wearing or casting :)

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez rumpelstiltskin:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

Can you explain how Stormbolts is only able to trigger sneak attacks once per rest? That's not how Surprise Spells works.... And, yes, AT level 10....around the time when you get Stormbolts.

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

surprise spells (according to the description) only works on flat-footed enemies, not when they are eligible for sneak attacks. so someone in melee will not trigger it. you can probably do it from invisibility, but it won't work on enemies with true seeing (and probably even see invis).
zippy magic is azata-only, so it's pretty niche. does it work for rays btw? if so, it's actually much more powerful with rays. you can get an extra ascendant element, sure, but it'll be at the cost of things like rupture restraints or last stand (since you'll also want abundant castings)

It does, in fact, work with Improved Invisibility (and many enemies do not have True Seeing). ATs also get 4 rounds of sneak attacks/day with Impromptu Sneak Attack.

Zippy Magic does work with rays, but again, different usage. 2 enemies vs. every enemy in range, twice. As for electricity, even without Zippy Magic, Stormlord's Resolve make it an attractive element. Delaying Last Stand on a caster is far from a major loss.

[revan1229]

Początkowo opublikowane przez corisai:

Początkowo opublikowane przez revan1229:

And why is Ascendant Element Electricity a waste of a feat for a blaster? Casters can easily get both AE Fire and Electricity. Zippy Magic Empowered Chain Lightning alone makes it worth it.

You can't have bloodlines both for fire and electricity. You're lacking Robe of Air*. You're lacking fire damage boosters.
Fire have more then enough AoE spells alone.

Początkowo opublikowane przez dwarner:

Maybe try those crappy high level spells like Seamantle, Frightful, Ice Body, Winds of Vengeance, etc... so your caster isn't a sitting duck.

AC still will be abysmal for higher difficulty. You can't make caster tanky enough without sacrificing it's blaster potential (Lich is a bit exception).

*C'mon. Past Enigma is irrelevant what're you wearing or casting :)

Yes, you can have Bloodlines for both. Cross-blooded Sorc and/or adding bloodlines with a Mythic feat. If AT, you get a robe that adds +1 dice for acid, fire, force, cold, and electricity.

And the point is not making a caster tanky, it's making them able to survive the odd hit.