are high level spells kind of garbage on higher difficulties?

[rumpelstiltskin]

i'm looking at level 8 for instance, and don't even know what can be useful there. almost everything allows a save, and even mobs on unfair have 30+ saves, so even if you invest a buttload of feats into boosting dc, you'll get like 20% chance of landing them. there's a couple that give some immunities, and seamantle is personal, so could only be useful for solo warrior/wizard builds. only rays seem to be useful for dealing damage.

[Conquista]

some spells are decent, but even if you don't use any of them, unlocking new metamagic possibilities thanks to higher spell level cap is also great

[Athos the Mad]

Take that line of thought just one step further to reach the conclusion that
A: "Wow the balance of the higher difficulties is really ♥♥♥♥ and not playtested"
or B: "Wow they really made every difficulty above normal restrict classes further and further until the entire party is just cheese munchkins"
or C: "git gud" which will probably be half the replies to this topic.

Either A or B is pretty valid. I personally don't really feel like the higher difficulties (above normal) are meant to be enjoyed and the enemies weren't properly tested and the game is simply a "How much do I know about exploiting pathfinder rules" puzzle. The fact that many fights before bosses with weaker demons are significantly harder than the boss of that area (Especially the Demon Lords) is evidence enough to me that they aren't tuned well and they just slapped immunities, inflated stats, and levels onto them to make them "difficult".

[Dixon Sider]

By the time you get level 8 spells, you should be hitting saves of 30 like they are made of paper. Use heightened and persistent metamagic combined. You can also get mythic feats that double up on multiple school specializations (so +4 DC) with only 2 feats invested. Gear that increases spell DC always stacks with each other (as far as I know), so keep any gear with +DC

Wait until you get Weird. The game pretty much ends.

[darkholyPL]

Honestly high level spells, are somewhat underwhelming. Not all of them obviously, but for such a high level they don't seem that impressive. But that would be a problem with Pathfinder the system, not so much with the pc game. Not sure what kind of license Owlcat has, if they can or can not add their own spells into the game, but DnD always had a bit of a problem with balancing high level magic. Either you got something OP, or (and often at the same spell level) so piss poor weak that you were wondering if this is even right or maybe some sort of a joke.
This has gotten even worse with newer editions of DnD. Just look at the joke that is Weird in 5e.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

By the time you get level 8 spells, you should be hitting saves of 30 like they are made of paper. Use heightened and persistent metamagic combined. You can also get mythic feats that double up on multiple school specializations (so +4 DC) with only 2 feats invested. Gear that increases spell DC always stacks with each other (as far as I know), so keep any gear with +DC

Wait until you get Weird. The game pretty much ends.

well, "by the time i reach level 8" i can't really use heighten and persistent on level 8 spells, can i? and spending 2 feats on schools i don't use, then a mystic ability on expanded arsenal for +4 dc doesn't sound like that hot a deal tbh. to hit 30+ saves "like they are made of paper" you'd need 40ish dc, which doesn't sound realistic.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

By the time you get level 8 spells, you should be hitting saves of 30 like they are made of paper. Use heightened and persistent metamagic combined. You can also get mythic feats that double up on multiple school specializations (so +4 DC) with only 2 feats invested. Gear that increases spell DC always stacks with each other (as far as I know), so keep any gear with +DC

Wait until you get Weird. The game pretty much ends.

well, "by the time i reach level 8" i can't really use heighten and persistent on level 8 spells, can i? and spending 2 feats on schools i don't use, then a mystic ability on expanded arsenal for +4 dc doesn't sound like that hot a deal tbh. to hit 30+ saves "like they are made of paper" you'd need 40ish dc, which doesn't sound realistic.

No, you can only use persistent on level 8 spells if you have the Trickster mythic I believe. But that is beside the point. WIth heighten, you can take good spells like phantasmal killer, baleful polymorph, and hold monster, then add them to your level 8 spells for higher DC/ persistence.

I had 40 DC with level 8 spells. It is all in the gear and feats/mythic choices.

[Dixon Sider]

As for non heightened nor persistent spells, Weird is insanely OP

[seeker1]

I was kinda disappointed by the lvl 9 spells. I've never seen a CRPG game implement the wish spell (ridiculously OP if done by its tabletop description) and I figured this one wouldn't.

They're good but some "great" 'classic' lvl 9 spells are missing.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

As for non heightened nor persistent spells, Weird is insanely OP

with 2 saves it looks inferior to banishment actually (which does the same with a single save against most enemies), unless you've already invested everything into illusion. 1 stunned round even on save is pretty decent though.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by seeker1:

I was kinda disappointed by the lvl 9 spells. I've never seen a CRPG game implement the wish spell (ridiculously OP if done by its tabletop description) and I figured this one wouldn't.

They're good but some "great" 'classic' lvl 9 spells are missing.

looking at pathfinder spells, on the 8th level there are also things like wall, which can give total protection against physical ranged attacks, or maze, which "traps someone in an interdimensional maze" without a save (allowing an int check to escape though). i recall a certain demilich in bg2, who spammed maze to great effect.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

As for non heightened nor persistent spells, Weird is insanely OP

with 2 saves it looks inferior to banishment actually (which does the same with a single save against most enemies), unless you've already invested everything into illusion. 1 stunned round even on save is pretty decent though.

Does banishment work on demons? Weird doesn't have the limit on levels. I am killing well over 100 levels worth of enemies per cast of Weird. There are also no abjuration DC items that I am aware of, but there are a couple different illusion DC items, and the will DC items still work on the fort save for phantasmal killer too.

Although you cant persist Weird but you can banishment.

You will be surprised at how many enemies drop with each Weird cast.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

well, "by the time i reach level 8" i can't really use heighten and persistent on level 8 spells, can i? and spending 2 feats on schools i don't use, then a mystic ability on expanded arsenal for +4 dc doesn't sound like that hot a deal tbh. to hit 30+ saves "like they are made of paper" you'd need 40ish dc, which doesn't sound realistic.

No, you can only use persistent on level 8 spells if you have the Trickster mythic I believe. But that is beside the point. WIth heighten, you can take good spells like phantasmal killer, baleful polymorph, and hold monster, then add them to your level 8 spells for higher DC/ persistence.

I had 40 DC with level 8 spells. It is all in the gear and feats/mythic choices.

40 DC Will saves is a 55% chance of success for *guards* in act 4 ... act 4.

[a ********]

A better way to phrase it might be “I feel like saving throw spells are the path of most resistance in this game.” I mean, you can optimize your DCs to beat almost anything, but if you are capable of the level of optimization needed for it to work at a certain difficulty setting, you are almost certainly capable of optimizing to blow through with touch spells and, to a lesser extent, conventional attacks.

[Dixon Sider]

Originally posted by Babbles:

Originally posted by Dixon Sider:

No, you can only use persistent on level 8 spells if you have the Trickster mythic I believe. But that is beside the point. WIth heighten, you can take good spells like phantasmal killer, baleful polymorph, and hold monster, then add them to your level 8 spells for higher DC/ persistence.

I had 40 DC with level 8 spells. It is all in the gear and feats/mythic choices.

40 DC Will saves is a 55% chance of success for *guards* in act 4 ... act 4.

Persist a 55% chance spell and you have 58% chance. 58% on spells you can have nearly 10 casts of... to take an entire enemy combatant out of the fight... how is that not overpowered? Its making the game too easy.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

i'm looking at level 8 for instance, and don't even know what can be useful there. almost everything allows a save, and even mobs on unfair have 30+ saves, so even if you invest a buttload of feats into boosting dc, you'll get like 20% chance of landing them. there's a couple that give some immunities, and seamantle is personal, so could only be useful for solo warrior/wizard builds. only rays seem to be useful for dealing damage.

No