Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

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Dracon 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 5:32
Why do all Lawful choices feel as if they are made for Lawful Evil?
Title says it all. I'm in the later end of Act III, and have yet to encounter a single lawful decision that doesn't feel like it's more designed for Lawful evil characters, than lawful good ones. The "good" ones on the other hand often feel more like they are the actual lawful good decisions.

This has gone so far now, that I'm about to loose my Paladin powers... , because I've drifted too far towards neutral good.
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目前顯示第 1-15 則留言,共 63
corisai 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 5:42 
O_o Where'd found them?
Because to execute traitors and weaklings (whom willingly come to fight evil!) is not a Evil act.
Storm 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 5:50 
Buy some scrolls of atonement at arsinoe to reset your alignment if you have to. Posted this because some(a lot?) of people don't know these scrolls exist or where to find them.
最後修改者:Storm; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:53
Uzkin 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:09 
As a rule of thumb, In this game, lawful neutral and lawful evil dialogue choices are tagged as [Lawful] whereas lawful good choices are tagged as [Good].

Therefore, if a character behaves in a Lawful Good fashion and always chooses lawful good options whenever possible his/her alignment will eventually become Neutral Good. S/he needs to occasionally skip the lawful good choices and take lawful evil options instead, in order to stay Lawful Good.
corisai 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:14 
引用自 Uzkin
whereas lawful good choices are tagged as [Good].
No, they are Neutral Good in most cases.
Don't forget - LG char WILL execute criminals and cultists. If you're trying to find a mercy for everyone - that isn't a Lawful but Neutral Good.
It's so fun to see how many players forget that paladin is a holy knight, is a crusader in war against evil so Duty is comes first to him while mercy is reserved only for whom deserved it.

If you're trying to save everyone and eager to pick options limiting Fifth Crusade combat ability or wasting it's resources on non-combat related demands - you are not paladin.
最後修改者:corisai; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:15
Dracon 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:22 
引用自 corisai
引用自 Uzkin
whereas lawful good choices are tagged as [Good].
No, they are Neutral Good in most cases.
Don't forget - LG char WILL execute criminals and cultists. If you're trying to find a mercy for everyone - that isn't a Lawful but Neutral Good.
It's so fun to see how many players forget that paladin is a holy knight, is a crusader in war against evil so Duty is comes first to him while mercy is reserved only for whom deserved it.

If you're trying to save everyone and eager to pick options limiting Fifth Crusade combat ability or wasting it's resources on non-combat related demands - you are not paladin.
Actually Lawful Good would give them a fair trial first, and potentially lock them up. An option often missing. For example, with
Camellia, once you find out that she is actually just a psycho murderer
you don't even get the option to lock her up, like you should.
corisai 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:29 
引用自 Dracon
Actually Lawful Good would give them a fair trial first, and potentially lock them up.

Lol, no. You're at WAR, not at school brawl!
It's more then enough to know they're fighting against you with weapons in their hands.
Dracon 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 6:56 
引用自 corisai
引用自 Dracon
Actually Lawful Good would give them a fair trial first, and potentially lock them up.

Lol, no. You're at WAR, not at school brawl!
It's more then enough to know they're fighting against you with weapons in their hands.
The military isn't a lawless zone, you know, and it wasn't that either in the medieval.

And note, not all of those decisions even have them fighting you first.
I am aware that Laeful good doesn't mean lawful nice, but the lawful decisions in WOTR seem either condescending or more shifted towards lawful evil characters, rather than lawful good ones.

And although they were rare, Kingmaker atr least sometimes had those middle ground decisions where there were actual LG,LN,LE decisions.
corisai 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:00 
引用自 Dracon
The military isn't a lawless zone, you know, and it wasn't that either in the medieval.
A few words - "military law".
For example - execution of deserters is a common thing. Same for being caught with banned weapon. Or I can remind you about Cathar heresy and crusade against it :)

引用自 Dracon
I am aware that Laeful good doesn't mean lawful nice, but the lawful decisions in WOTR seem either condescending or more shifted towards lawful evil characters, rather than lawful good ones.
Probably because we're in a middle of WAR? That isn't a suitable place to care about poor and struggling.
最後修改者:corisai; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:02
jsaving 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:11 
引用自 Dracon
Why do all Lawful choices feel as if they are made for Lawful Evil?
Because you aren't using the game's definition of lawful goodness. Lawful good people tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, speak out against injustice, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Whereas your definition seems more attuned to "Law and Order," where you feel like your role is to apprehend while others judge.

Which is a completely fine and understandable perspective, it just isn't lawful as defined by Pathfinder so it is not surprising that you constantly find yourself dissatisfied with lawful choices. Given that discrepancy, picking the game's only class with a lawful good alignment requirement may not be the best choice for you.

Sure, you could manage the situation by constantly buying atonement scrolls or just resetting your alignment with cheats whenever you drift away from LG, but what's the point of doing that when you can just switch to a different class that allows alignments more in-sync with how you'd like your character to behave? Faith hunter inquisitor comes to mind as an archetype that's broadly similar to paladin yet would allow you to be neutral good, and other archetypes like deliverer slayer, crusader cleric or purifier oracle have enough thematic similarities to paladin that they might be worth considering as well.
最後修改者:jsaving; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:23
Dracon 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:39 
引用自 jsaving
引用自 Dracon
Why do all Lawful choices feel as if they are made for Lawful Evil?
Because you aren't using the game's definition of lawful goodness. Lawful good people tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, speak out against injustice, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Whereas your definition seems more attuned to "Law and Order," where you feel like your role is to apprehend while others judge.

Which is a completely fine and understandable perspective, it just isn't lawful as defined by Pathfinder so it is not surprising that you constantly find yourself dissatisfied with lawful choices. Given that discrepancy, picking the game's only class with a lawful good alignment requirement may not be the best choice for you.

Sure, you could manage the situation by constantly buying atonement scrolls or just resetting your alignment with cheats whenever you drift away from LG, but what's the point of doing that when you can just switch to a different class that allows alignments more in-sync with how you'd like your character to behave? Faith hunter inquisitor comes to mind as an archetype that's broadly similar to paladin yet would allow you to be neutral good, and other archetypes like deliverer slayer, crusader cleric or purifier oracle have enough thematic similarities to paladin that they might be worth considering as well.

My point is that it wasn't nearly as bad in Kingmaker, as Kingmaker had actual choices marked as the full alignment, rather than just NEutral-Something.
I'm not even trying to save everyone, Wenduag for example clearly had to die. Camellia too, due to absence of an option to lock her up (although that one wasn't even marked as lawful)

Some of the Lawful choices towards Seelah for example, are nothing but blame-shifting, and totally uncalled for, even by Pathfinder's definition.
最後修改者:Dracon; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 7:47
Uzkin 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:00 
引用自 corisai
引用自 Uzkin
whereas lawful good choices are tagged as [Good].
No, they are Neutral Good in most cases.
Don't forget - LG char WILL execute criminals and cultists. If you're trying to find a mercy for everyone - that isn't a Lawful but Neutral Good.
It's so fun to see how many players forget that paladin is a holy knight, is a crusader in war against evil so Duty is comes first to him while mercy is reserved only for whom deserved it.

If you're trying to save everyone and eager to pick options limiting Fifth Crusade combat ability or wasting it's resources on non-combat related demands - you are not paladin.
No, that is not the issue here. Those "thou hast done evil therefore thou must die" type of LG choices were prevalent in Kingmaker but not so much in WotR. Rather, the issue in WotR is that the Lawful options are explicitly constructed to contrast the Good options. You typically either turn a blind eye to evil or actively support evil in order to support Law. You might have two choices such as these:

1. [Lawful] I won't lift a finger to help you, slave. Slavery is legal among your people and your master has every right to beat you like he just did.
2. [Good] You poor thing. Don't worry, I will buy you from your master and set you free.

Here the good option is also perfectly consistent with the law, so a lawful good person would always pick that one. It doesn't contradict with any of his ideals. Whereas the lawful options are very often lawful at the expense of good -- so that a lawful good character will have to compromise being good if he wants to stay lawful.
For_Science! 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:06 
引用自 corisai
A few words - "military law".
For example - execution of deserters is a common thing. Same for being caught with banned weapon. Or I can remind you about Cathar heresy and crusade against it :)
Are you holding up the Inquisition and the Crusades -- or the purge of the Cathars in particular -- as real-life examples of Lawful Good institutions? They strike me as textbook Lawful Evil. Hell, the Cathar massacres were the setting for that famous line “Kill them all, the Lord knows who are His”. (And to be clear, when Arnaud-Amaury spoke that line, he was talking about captured women and children, not about soldiers in the field.)
corisai 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:17 
引用自 Uzkin
1. [Lawful] I won't lift a finger to help you, slave. Slavery is legal among your people and your master has every right to beat you like he just did.
2. [Good] You poor thing. Don't worry, I will buy you from your master and set you free.

Here the good option is also perfectly consistent with the law, so a lawful good person would always pick that one. It doesn't contradict with any of his ideals. Whereas the lawful options are very often lawful at the expense of good -- so that a lawful good character will have to compromise being good if he wants to stay lawful.

Actually Paladin should always pick 1st option. You're on mission to save whole country and not to waste time (and money) on useless charity.

Paladin is not a Hero-Save-them-All, he's more like special ops officer.

引用自 For_Science!
Are you holding up the Inquisition and the Crusades -- or the purge of the Cathars in particular -- as real-life examples of Lawful Good institutions? )

Yes, Lawful Good. They tried to save souls from heresy via passing laws - it's a pure LG act (yes, I realise that probaly some nobles&church leaders had more sinister plans but for common crusaders they'd done LG act).
最後修改者:corisai; 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:18
darkholyPL 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:23 
引用自 Dracon
Title says it all. I'm in the later end of Act III, and have yet to encounter a single lawful decision that doesn't feel like it's more designed for Lawful evil characters, than lawful good ones. The "good" ones on the other hand often feel more like they are the actual lawful good decisions.

This has gone so far now, that I'm about to loose my Paladin powers... , because I've drifted too far towards neutral good.
You can go to retrain your PC, and it will reset their aligment as well. You can use that if you get off your LG aligment.
Also yea I agree, the [lawful] don't look like good choices, but fair is fair, they don't say it's LG neceserrily. Some are, some aren't. Choose what fits.
Conquista 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 8:33 
in kingmaker quite a bit of lawful good decision were pretty much "kill them all'
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張貼日期: 2021 年 11 月 14 日 上午 5:32
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