Petition to stop RPG Makers from...*Camellia spoilers*

[SoundsOfNight]

From continuing one of the most overused RPG tropes - the split personality / dark secret magic user. Seems like it's in every RPG nowadays (Pillars, Divine Divinity, etc). Was it this

I just completed Camellia's "quest" which was one of the most anti-climactic companion "quests" in the game. To me, it's hardly a quest - yes it's surprising it was HER, but really, was anyone surprised she has a dark secret after she blurts out "BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD!" at random times? Ha. Also, it breaks the rule of Writing 101 - we are TOLD everything, and not shown ANYTHING, so it's simply not impactful in any way. Had we gotten to understand the Shaman aspect of her more, it would be better, but instead we get a 2 minute synopsis.

Now to dress this up with some positivity - the reason this uninspired character / quest sticks out to me, is bc of how well written some of the other characters are (Regill, Daeran, Aru, Lann, etc). Camellia feels more like a checkbox.

Thoughts?

[Zaltys]

Nguyên văn bởi =DeadShot=:

In her last quest you can kill both her and her father. Or allow her to kill her father and then kill her.

Yeah, but you cannot do it if you don't go that far. Cam hanged as soon as my character found out about it, so that left no way to deal with her accomplish. Gwern outright admits to knowing what she was up to when you talk to him after Cam is put down, yet there's no option to do anything about that.

[=DeadShot=]

Nguyên văn bởi Zaltys:

Nguyên văn bởi =DeadShot=:

In her last quest you can kill both her and her father. Or allow her to kill her father and then kill her.

Yeah, but you cannot do it if you don't go that far. Cam hanged as soon as my character found out about it, so that left no way to deal with her accomplish. Gwern outright admits to knowing what she was up to when you talk to him after Cam is put down, yet there's no option to do anything about that.

Gwern crimes are much mores that knowing and covering Cammila crimes. As I said the whole family is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up. Cammila dead mother included.

[SoundsOfNight]

Dang oh well. I guess I have to let her accomplice hang around bc Owlcat said so :(

[Warped Sage]

The people who designed this game have a weird sense of humor with Camellia. When you first find her in the prologue she is standing over a silver haired elf, who looks a lot like Aravashnial from the original adventure path.
It feels weird that they basically axed the back story for Anevia (You can get bits and pieces of his/her backstory through out the game up to a point.) and then basically announce to you that they axed most of Aravashnial's story and the Riftwardens, by killing him and having Camellia over the body. Then they radically change a lot of Horgus Gwerm's story taking him from an abrasive better angel to a terrible father in a terrible situation with Camellia attached. They axed all 3 beginning stories and their conflicts to put in their own game and story.
I think it was intentional to tell the players of the former adventure path that this was a new story, almost detached from the adventure path which happened in another universe/dimension. In that way Camellia is a plot device, but then they grow her into a more interesting character, who is supposed to represent the other duality to saving so many people, that there are people who can't be saved. Then the options in what to do with her in every stage of the game are very limited in how to deal with her, even though you know the twist. As a story oriented person, Camellia confused me a lot.

[Zaltys]

Nguyên văn bởi Warped Sage:

In that way Camellia is a plot device, but then they grow her into a more interesting character, who is supposed to represent the other duality to saving so many people, that there are people who can't be saved.

How is that interesting, though? The endless flood of cultists etc you kill during the game already represent people who can't be saved. Having one in the party feels like waste of space. I cannot understand why anyone likes her. What's there to like? She's the most obnoxious party member that I've met in CRPGs, even beating Anomen in that regard. Her only personality trait is (besides the killings) to complain about everything. Yeah, spoiled noble, I get it. Doesn't make it any less grating. Especially when Daeran's commentary is similar — but at least he's got some witty comments mixed in here and there. Camilla just whines and whines.

It's not a big deal as there's so many other companions to choose from. I just wish the others had got more development, and hate to think that some of that dev time went into Cam.

[Warped Sage]

Nguyên văn bởi Zaltys:

Nguyên văn bởi Warped Sage:

In that way Camellia is a plot device, but then they grow her into a more interesting character, who is supposed to represent the other duality to saving so many people, that there are people who can't be saved.

How is that interesting, though? The endless flood of cultists etc you kill during the game already represent people who can't be saved. Having one in the party feels like waste of space. I cannot understand why anyone likes her. What's there to like? She's the most obnoxious party member that I've met in CRPGs, even beating Anomen in that regard. Her only personality trait is (besides the killings) to complain about everything. Yeah, spoiled noble, I get it. Doesn't make it any less grating. Especially when Daeran's commentary is similar — but at least he's got some witty comments mixed in here and there. Camilla just whines and whines.

It's not a big deal as there's so many other companions to choose from. I just wish the others had got more development, and hate to think that some of that dev time went into Cam.

What I wrote was that she was more interesting than just a plot device character.

The game also contradicts you in that cultists can be saved through Ember, and the other times you can choose to recruit them instead of kill them. Other than that, most the cultists don't even get a story because they are plot device characters.

I get why you think she is annoying, but most of her character development is actually when you romance her, which most people who don't like her to begin with don't do. It's kinda stereotypical anime yandere/tsundere, but it's there and feels a lot like the manic pixie dream girl story I've seen a lot of times.

I agree with you fully that Daeran is a far more complex character. I do wish Owlcat did more on character work, but in my opinion, the game is already better story-wise than 90% of games, so can't complain too much.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Nguyên văn bởi corisai:

Nguyên văn bởi DragonSoundxSG:

However, I still stick by my core argument that this trope is tired and Camellia is just as uninspired.

Actually she was quite unique compared to other "dark magic users" - being 100% crazy girl that not able to be "saved" even by your glorious d#$%.
Sad that after so many whiners devs surrendered and slowly turning her epilogue into vanila "happy ending" >_<

To which I say you must have been happy with Season 8 of Game of Thrones and the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy; bad writing is bad writing; besides happy endings are the best Fantasy endings why because we go to fantasy to escape the problems of real-life there isn't much enjoyment for me in a story that ends in a bleak tragic ending; is that supposed to make me feel better about myself no it makes me feel worse about myself or makes me want to completely rewrite the story myself.

[Miskatonic]

I don't think Horgus Gwerm is quite the villain people are making him out to be. His first obvious sin was putting the name of Gwerm over the well-being of his family, but in many ways his actions are also understandable as a father trying to do the best for his daughter.

While he does make everything worse, I found him to be rather sympathetic. What if your child turned out to have psychopathic tendencies, or if they hurt someone? It's easy to say you'd turn them into the proper authorities, but talk is cheap.

[Lex]

Also about Horgus, ask yourself that question: what would you do if you found your wife, standing over your sleeping baby girl, ready to assassinate her?

Nguyên văn bởi Miskatonic:

It's easy to say you'd turn them into the proper authorities, but talk is cheap.

True. It's easy to be righteous when you are not facing such exceptional, difficult situation. Horgus made mistakes with Camellia, directly and indirectly making her condition worse, Not to mention the woman he hired brutalised Cam.
But he believed he did the best to protect her from the world. And the world from her.

If you finish her quest, in a bloody manner, Horgus not only faced his fate, fully aware of what would happen, but also let Camellia inherit the mansion, name and fortune of the Gwerms. Despite everything she did.
On the other hand, if you execute Camcam, Horgus' sadness doesn't blind him and he tells you that his daughter played a dangerous game that would end badly, sooner or later. He expected it to happen. He is fully aware of the atrocities, but loves his daughter more than he fears the consequences.

At the end he got caught in a terrible chain of events he, himself, started when he became Horgus Gwerm, and never stopped. He took terrible decisions, and he definitey is responsible for the monster Camellia became, watering the seed of insanity.
If he let his wife murder his daughter, that story would have ended. Perhaps it would have been better?
But what kind of father would do that?

[Wither]

Nguyên văn bởi Gregorovitch:

Nguyên văn bởi DragonSoundxSG:

so it's simply not impactful in any way.

I'd say 99.9% of that is 'cos it's virtually impossible to read anything anywhere about this game without stumbling across spoilers on the subject of Camellia somewhere. This very thread for example :)

Why? I would suggest 'cos she is remarkable and memorable, at least for many folks, most especially in the context of the romance option. So no, I don't really agree with you on this.

Well. Story need more progression to see how this lunatic develop. She kill like 7 innocent and we go REE DIE EVIL... while we spare Aru, who possibly kill countless more, and also corrupt an Azata, and whateverdarksecret she refuse to talk about. Because she say she want to redeem herself.
We don't get to redeem Camellia. For some reason.

[Lex]

To be fair, Arueshalae can be redeemed only because Desna, a literal goddess, decided to touch her soul, and now looks upon her. There is a cosmic force at work here.
All things considered, Arue got lucky. Desna is known for obliterating demons

Best goddess btw

[BigRowdy]

wow spoiler alert!!!!

[provokastoras]

tbh as someone who practices some shamanistic practices irl, I feel somewhat offended that shamans are depicted in such ways. after all, all npc shamans in game are either murder hobos, child abusing sadists, or demon worshipping crazies. (wintersun shaman) . When the Europeans invaded the peace loving shamanistic societies of north America who had somehow managed a nowhere seen before accompaniment in the planet... (to coexist in peace). It was us lovely Christians who started the slaughter and not the savage shamans... who actually came to the christian's aid and helped us survive the hard winters for which we were unprepared.
In either case, I just take it as one more grain of Christian propaganda to add into the mount.
As for camelia's character, She has the novelty that is evil, she was born evil, and she enjoys being evil. most writings stick to the platonic, none is evil by choice... which is so naive. So I won't say her writing is without merit, at least it makes it clear at the end that the spirits and her beliefs were not the reason she was a murderhobo. She ended up dead in my first playthrough, on the second one I saw her story through, I can't say I am disappointed that some characters cannot be redeemed... after all even Joan d' arc's adviser was a murder hobo with a child killing fetish, who had the dracula syndrome thinking that somehow the blood of Innocent has magical powers.
Also the fact that camelia is a woman and not a man can serve to put to rest some crazy right wing americans who see virtue signalling all over the place. If there is something I disagree with is that she would need to put a little bit more effort in concealing her bloodlust. I am surprised that from the good aligned people only anivia notices something. (the evil party members everyone, including daeran, seem to be onto her. ) Ember is so insightful to everyone else... but with camelia she just takes the abuse like her b...., sheela ok maybe that one relies on her detect alignment too much or her head is really made of wood. Sociel has no excuses though, Aru.... come on girl did you not see whats in her dreams? Chivaro certainly had no problems finding out. I never played with lann so :P .

[seeker1]

This is all minor spoiler territory. I'll warn but not box.

Horgus is a bit of a prick. Some of her attitudes toward commoners are clearly inherited from him, and it's ironic given he was a pretend aristocrat who faked his identity. That said, I agree I think one message the game is definitely hinting it is while he may not have raised Cam perfectly, it's not entirely his fault she is the way she is. Yes, she hates him with a smoldering anger, but it's not totally deserved, and his final revelation that he saved her from being smothered doesn't stop her desire to murder him. Of course, then she wants an entire murder spree of all his servants, because even if he was a prick, they all need to die, too. Uh....

Sheesh. She is a bad seed. Bottom line. Not all at the feet of Horgus. Owlcat are saying "no you just can't excuse everything on how you are raised".

I think the game pretty much slaps you in the face: yes, even demons can be redeemed, drow and many other evil things, but well, yeah, not all humans (or half elves) can be saved/redeemed. She's not a charity case, you CANNOT FIX HER.

[claiminglight]

When I first started the game I was giving enough respect towards it to think "Oh, come on now- there's no way she killed the very first guy you saw. Because that's super sus, and they don't think I'm stupid, right?"

The orgy of evidence only mounted from there, and I kept thinking... nah... it's gotta be a super obvious misdirect. Right?

Ugh. No, it really just is that in your face stupid.