dragon shapeshifter build

[Micromanner]

hello, I want to play again and this time as dragon shapeshifter as dhampir. Can anyone recommend a build, or just which stats I need? I just want to be melee (no magic stuff)

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

I just hate that dragon shifter isn't a charisma class, that seems like a bit failure on owlcat's part, imo. How you gonna make a class that is an actual dragon, and not make it charisma based.

Why? Because sorcerer is Charisma based? I don't see this as an issue at all. Wisdom is an important stat for Dragons. Specifically Gold Dragons. In fact as far as Draconic stats go Wisdom is always higher than their Charisma score.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by DragynDance:

I just hate that dragon shifter isn't a charisma class, that seems like a bit failure on owlcat's part, imo. How you gonna make a class that is an actual dragon, and not make it charisma based.

Why? Because sorcerer is Charisma based? I don't see this as an issue at all. Wisdom is an important stat for Dragons. Specifically Gold Dragons. In fact as far as Draconic stats go Wisdom is always higher than their Charisma score.

No, because EVERYTHING draconic is charisma based. All dragon abilities in the monster handbook scale off of the dragons charisma. Scaled fist is charisma based. Dragon discple is charisma based. The saving throws from a half dragons racial abilities are charisma based. Everything dragon related is a charisma class, EXCEPT dragon shapeshifter.

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Originally posted by Razer:

Why? Because sorcerer is Charisma based? I don't see this as an issue at all. Wisdom is an important stat for Dragons. Specifically Gold Dragons. In fact as far as Draconic stats go Wisdom is always higher than their Charisma score.

No, because EVERYTHING draconic is charisma based. All dragon abilities in the monster handbook scale off of the dragons charisma. Scaled fist is charisma based. Dragon discple is charisma based. The saving throws from a half dragons racial abilities are charisma based. Everything dragon related is a charisma class, EXCEPT dragon shapeshifter.

But Shifter is a Druidic class so it makes a lot more sense for it to be Wisdom focussed rather than anything else. The fact that they transform into Dragons isn't related to Dragons, it's related to their shapeshifting powers which are derived from Wisdom. It wouldn't make sense for this to shift to Charisma just because their chosen form is Dragon.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by DragynDance:

No, because EVERYTHING draconic is charisma based. All dragon abilities in the monster handbook scale off of the dragons charisma. Scaled fist is charisma based. Dragon discple is charisma based. The saving throws from a half dragons racial abilities are charisma based. Everything dragon related is a charisma class, EXCEPT dragon shapeshifter.

But Shifter is a Druidic class so it makes a lot more sense for it to be Wisdom focussed rather than anything else. The fact that they transform into Dragons isn't related to Dragons, it's related to their shapeshifting powers which are derived from Wisdom. It wouldn't make sense for this to shift to Charisma just because their chosen form is Dragon.

Every other dragon related subclass works that way, they switch to charisma just because their chosen powers come from dragons. Which is great because it makes them all synergize with each other amazingly well for multiclassing.

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Originally posted by Razer:

But Shifter is a Druidic class so it makes a lot more sense for it to be Wisdom focussed rather than anything else. The fact that they transform into Dragons isn't related to Dragons, it's related to their shapeshifting powers which are derived from Wisdom. It wouldn't make sense for this to shift to Charisma just because their chosen form is Dragon.

Every other dragon related subclass works that way, they switch to charisma just because their chosen powers come from dragons. Which is great because it makes them all synergize with each other amazingly well for multiclassing.

Multiclassing this archetype is pointless. Even if going Legend you're better off going for a martial style multiclass. What would you want to multiclass this archetype with anyway. You're making a big deal out of something that isnt an issue. Druidic class, so wisdom. This is just you not coping.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Every other dragon related subclass works that way, they switch to charisma just because their chosen powers come from dragons. Which is great because it makes them all synergize with each other amazingly well for multiclassing.

Multiclassing this archetype is pointless. Even if going Legend you're better off going for a martial style multiclass. What would you want to multiclass this archetype with anyway. You're making a big deal out of something that isnt an issue. Druidic class, so wisdom. This is just you not coping.

Why would I cope with a weaker, poorly designed class that can't even do it's own gimmick correctly? At leats if it scaled off charisma, you could multiclass with something to carry it and enjoy the roleplay of being an actual dragon while actually being strong.

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Originally posted by Razer:

Multiclassing this archetype is pointless. Even if going Legend you're better off going for a martial style multiclass. What would you want to multiclass this archetype with anyway. You're making a big deal out of something that isnt an issue. Druidic class, so wisdom. This is just you not coping.

Why would I cope with a weaker, poorly designed class that can't even do it's own gimmick correctly? At leats if it scaled off charisma, you could multiclass with something to carry it and enjoy the roleplay of being an actual dragon while actually being strong.

It's an archetype made by Paizo. Owlcat even buffed it A LOT.

But you can play this archetype and be totally fine. It's not weak. It's just that there's other things that are stronger. But that goes for like 80% of the archetypes in the game. I don't know what the point would be to multiclass it. You'd lose out on the capstone. You may as well not play it at all. Besides there's plenty of Wisdom related classes to utilize IF you want to multiclass. There's no point to multiclass this archetype at all. It's fine as is. Even more powerful than the PnP version.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Why would I cope with a weaker, poorly designed class that can't even do it's own gimmick correctly? At leats if it scaled off charisma, you could multiclass with something to carry it and enjoy the roleplay of being an actual dragon while actually being strong.

It's an archetype made by Paizo. Owlcat even buffed it A LOT.

But you can play this archetype and be totally fine. It's not weak. It's just that there's other things that are stronger. But that goes for like 80% of the archetypes in the game. I don't know what the point would be to multiclass it. You'd lose out on the capstone. You may as well not play it at all. Besides there's plenty of Wisdom related classes to utilize IF you want to multiclass. There's no point to multiclass this archetype at all. It's fine as is. Even more powerful than the PnP version.

Almost every classes capstone is universally disappointing, tbh. And if you do an undersized party with gestalt rules, you can still get the capstone while "multiclassing" anyway. It's just so unfortunate that doing sorc/monk/disciple gives you a much stronger dragon form, or having someone else turn you into a dragon via being a brown fur transmuter is stronger.

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Originally posted by Razer:

It's an archetype made by Paizo. Owlcat even buffed it A LOT.

But you can play this archetype and be totally fine. It's not weak. It's just that there's other things that are stronger. But that goes for like 80% of the archetypes in the game. I don't know what the point would be to multiclass it. You'd lose out on the capstone. You may as well not play it at all. Besides there's plenty of Wisdom related classes to utilize IF you want to multiclass. There's no point to multiclass this archetype at all. It's fine as is. Even more powerful than the PnP version.

Almost every classes capstone is universally disappointing, tbh. And if you do an undersized party with gestalt rules, you can still get the capstone while "multiclassing" anyway. It's just so unfortunate that doing sorc/monk/disciple gives you a much stronger dragon form, or having someone else turn you into a dragon via being a brown fur transmuter is stronger.

I don't know if it's stronger. You get wis to AC. you get x3 crit at level 17. You get iterative attacks on your natural attack of choice. Being a fighter and turning into a Dragon through brown fur doesn't sound "stronger". But I'm pretty sure you could meta up a class build that has more dps and tankiness. But I mean you can always do that. It doesn't disqualify this class at all. The capstone is the main reason to stay in this class. The fact that someone else can transform you into a dragon is moot. Then you could play anything and say you're a dragon. Except you're not. Even a sorcerer with dragon disciple and cha to AC isn't going to be as strong as this class on its capstone due to the specific extra powers you get.

I mean I'm in agreement that the archetype is weak compared to when you get your "upgrades". It would be good if you could get your dragon transformations a few levels earlier. But like I said. The original implementation was how Paizo made it and you would only ever get Dragonkind II. Now the class sports Dragonkind III. It's totally viable to play and not "weak" vs the campaign.

Edit: one thing I don't know if it's the exact same transformation as Dragonkind or if it's similar to Gold Dragon. Because there's a big benefit that the GD has over DK and that is the the claws are the primary attack. For DK it's bite. Which sucks because that's what's used as attack of opportunity attacks. So GD transformation is superior even if only for the claw to AoO translation. If Dragonblood shifter uses the same template then the transformation is superior to Dragonkind. I haven't played the class myself so I don't really know.

[DragynDance]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Almost every classes capstone is universally disappointing, tbh. And if you do an undersized party with gestalt rules, you can still get the capstone while "multiclassing" anyway. It's just so unfortunate that doing sorc/monk/disciple gives you a much stronger dragon form, or having someone else turn you into a dragon via being a brown fur transmuter is stronger.

I don't know if it's stronger. You get wis to AC. you get x3 crit at level 17. You get iterative attacks on your natural attack of choice. Being a fighter and turning into a Dragon through brown fur doesn't sound "stronger". But I'm pretty sure you could meta up a class build that has more dps and tankiness. But I mean you can always do that. It doesn't disqualify this class at all. The capstone is the main reason to stay in this class. The fact that someone else can transform you into a dragon is moot. Then you could play anything and say you're a dragon. Except you're not. Even a sorcerer with dragon disciple and cha to AC isn't going to be as strong as this class on its capstone due to the specific extra powers you get.

I mean I'm in agreement that the archetype is weak compared to when you get your "upgrades". It would be good if you could get your dragon transformations a few levels earlier. But like I said. The original implementation was how Paizo made it and you would only ever get Dragonkind II. Now the class sports Dragonkind III. It's totally viable to play and not "weak" vs the campaign.

Edit: one thing I don't know if it's the exact same transformation as Dragonkind or if it's similar to Gold Dragon. Because there's a big benefit that the GD has over DK and that is the the claws are the primary attack. For DK it's bite. Which sucks because that's what's used as attack of opportunity attacks. So GD transformation is superior even if only for the claw to AoO translation. If Dragonblood shifter uses the same template then the transformation is superior to Dragonkind. I haven't played the class myself so I don't really know.

The sorc/monk/disciple with lich mythic path dragon build is one of the builds that has solo'd unfair, so it's pretty strong. You get to around ~40 AC by level 6, insane amounts of base attack bonus, tons of buff stacking. And then you can use the transformation spell along with dragon shape eventually, to mega buff all your ability scores to insane amounts. You can eventually use metamagic and various abilitites to get haste to have 24h duration and you just become a god.

[Razer]

Originally posted by DragynDance:

Originally posted by Razer:

I don't know if it's stronger. You get wis to AC. you get x3 crit at level 17. You get iterative attacks on your natural attack of choice. Being a fighter and turning into a Dragon through brown fur doesn't sound "stronger". But I'm pretty sure you could meta up a class build that has more dps and tankiness. But I mean you can always do that. It doesn't disqualify this class at all. The capstone is the main reason to stay in this class. The fact that someone else can transform you into a dragon is moot. Then you could play anything and say you're a dragon. Except you're not. Even a sorcerer with dragon disciple and cha to AC isn't going to be as strong as this class on its capstone due to the specific extra powers you get.

I mean I'm in agreement that the archetype is weak compared to when you get your "upgrades". It would be good if you could get your dragon transformations a few levels earlier. But like I said. The original implementation was how Paizo made it and you would only ever get Dragonkind II. Now the class sports Dragonkind III. It's totally viable to play and not "weak" vs the campaign.

Edit: one thing I don't know if it's the exact same transformation as Dragonkind or if it's similar to Gold Dragon. Because there's a big benefit that the GD has over DK and that is the the claws are the primary attack. For DK it's bite. Which sucks because that's what's used as attack of opportunity attacks. So GD transformation is superior even if only for the claw to AoO translation. If Dragonblood shifter uses the same template then the transformation is superior to Dragonkind. I haven't played the class myself so I don't really know.

The sorc/monk/disciple with lich mythic path dragon build is one of the builds that has solo'd unfair, so it's pretty strong. You get to around ~40 AC by level 6, insane amounts of base attack bonus, tons of buff stacking. And then you can use the transformation spell along with dragon shape eventually, to mega buff all your ability scores to insane amounts. You can eventually use metamagic and various abilitites to get haste to have 24h duration and you just become a god.

To be fair most of that power comes from sorcerer with merged lich spellbook, not from being a Dragon.

The one thing I dislike about the Dragonblood Shifter is what it loses compared to other shifter archetypes. You only get a single aspect and the aspect isn't good. The major form is great, but you get no other benefits.

But not everything needs to match up to the best min maxed build to be enjoyable. And not everything needs to be able to solo unfair. I mean only a tiny portion of the playerbase plays on higher than Core. So it's not really valuable to measure an archetype towards the Unfair difficulty.

The elemental rampager Angel into Gold Dragon I played also was pretty strong. 100+AB + Angel spells.