THROUGH THE ASHES - BEMIR

[BLUESTORM2112]

Is it better to turn him over? What are the consequences of letting him live? Will he kill people later on? I'm of the mind to let him live and turn him over to the authorities once you've made it to Defenders Hearth if that's an option.

[Vertigo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh grognardgary:

I was going to say that at this point in the story Hulrun crowd is nearly as dangerously unhinged as the demons. Remember they want to hang a priest of Desna and tried to burn one of your early party members alive. So forgive me if I am less than willing to take their word on anything.

I think that ignores nuance. Yes, they overdid it with Ember, but they were also from the third crusade where witch hunting was a thing. It doesn't help that the game shows multiple times where demons trick mortals by pretending to be something else. Some paranoia is justified.

Ad for the priests of Desna, their stupidity is to blame for their problems. I just finished that section recently. They admit that they tried to "save" the wardstone despite no feasible plan and flimsy information at best. They themselves admit that their plan was unsuccessful and amounted to nothing. It doesn't help to everyone else that doesn't trust them that the wardstone stopped working around the time they get caught breaking in (which is ALSO around the same time sleeper cultists show their true colors), creating probable cause for them to be suspicious. The head priest gets heat for being so inept as to let them do such an idiotic plan without any oversight. I am sorry, the Azata run is full of idiocy, and Desna's priests make her seem overall incompetent in WotR.

Hulrun borders on mad dog territory, but I am giving him a pass with respect to the priests of Desna.

[grognardgary]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Vertigo:

Diposting pertama kali oleh grognardgary:

I was going to say that at this point in the story Hulrun crowd is nearly as dangerously unhinged as the demons. Remember they want to hang a priest of Desna and tried to burn one of your early party members alive. So forgive me if I am less than willing to take their word on anything.

I think that ignores nuance. Yes, they overdid it with Ember, but they were also from the third crusade where witch hunting was a thing. It doesn't help that the game shows multiple times where demons trick mortals by pretending to be something else. Some paranoia is justified.

Ad for the priests of Desna, their stupidity is to blame for their problems. I just finished that section recently. They admit that they tried to "save" the wardstone despite no feasible plan and flimsy information at best. They themselves admit that their plan was unsuccessful and amounted to nothing. It doesn't help to everyone else that doesn't trust them that the wardstone stopped working around the time they get caught breaking in (which is ALSO around the same time sleeper cultists show their true colors), creating probable cause for them to be suspicious. The head priest gets heat for being so inept as to let them do such an idiotic plan without any oversight. I am sorry, the Azata run is full of idiocy, and Desna's priests make her seem overall incompetent in WotR.

Hulrun borders on mad dog territory, but I am giving him a pass with respect to the priests of Desna.

But they did have a plan, Study the issue and repair it. Obviously doing Nothing a la Hulrun was a dismal failure to put i mildly.

[flat]

Bemir's sort of like Riddick, (sort of), from Pitch Black, (not the sequel). Not the sort of person you would team up with but damn useful in the moment.

[Vertigo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh grognardgary:

But they did have a plan, Study the issue and repair it. Obviously doing Nothing a la Hulrun was a dismal failure to put i mildly.

Before I make my point, I think everyone agrees that Iomadae held the largest ♥♥♥♥♥ ball in all of this. Since people rightfully criticize her, I will keep my focus on Desna. That said, she is also culpable for her poor handling of everything.

I don't blame Hulrun for not trusting the priests of Desna. If they came to him at all, their argument was effectively "a dream told us." While Desna is the goddess of dreams, one might wonder why she didn't give Hulrun the vision instead of some starry eyed followers. It goes without saying that had he known the vision was from a succubus (that the player knows is actually good), I would not blame the man for wanting them within a mile of it.

Instead of trying a better method, they break in and try to help the wardstone and fail miserably. Had they done something useful, one could give them a pass. Instead, not only does nothing good happen, but the stone seemingly stops working shortly thereafter. This is also the same time the sleeper agent cultists reveal they have been sabotaging things in the city. Even though it is obviously not their fault, it is completely reasonable for any person to see that sequence of events and come to the same conclusion. The priest of Desna, who could have at any point tried to dissuade them, sat back and let them turn Hulrun against their temple. As the leader of his group, he took no responsibility. It's no wonder Hulrun kills him.

I agree Hulrun is an extremist, but his hardline stance is not without merit. The city is full of cultists, the Eagle Watch has members defect in front of their leader, and the fact remains he was absolutely right in being suspicious at the start of the game.

The reason he comes across as lawful stupid is inconsistent writing on Owlcat's part. He undoubtedly does some terrible things, but it appears the good outways the bad seeing as most other NPCs don't want him killed or stripped of his position.

Now that I am doing an Aeon run, I am starting to think Owlcat's writers really do not like the lawful alignment.

[grognardgary]

The trouble is the Dream was the third indication Hulrun and company that something might be amiss with their protective shield. 1st came the suicidal attack whose only apparent goal was to throw crap on the monument, then came someone not of Desna who told Hulrun upon examining the monument that there was a flaw. then came the priests of Desna with the same message as the other guy and at this point anyone with even the slightest degree of inellectual honesty/integrity, to say nothing of a functioning brain, should have smelled a rather large and odorous rat. Note there is no evidence that Hulrun ever asked Iomedae for her opinion or even the queen. Sadly at this point in his career Halrun had become little more than a half mad power hungry small minded fascist with delusions of Grandeur who could not be reasoned with by anyone.

[Vertigo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh grognardgary:

The trouble is the Dream was the third indication Hulrun and company that something might be amiss with their protective shield. 1st came the suicidal attack whose only apparent goal was to throw crap on the monument, then came someone not of Desna who told Hulrun upon examining the monument that there was a flaw. then came the priests of Desna with the same message as the other guy and at this point anyone with even the slightest degree of inellectual honesty/integrity, to say nothing of a functioning brain, should have smelled a rather large and odorous rat. Note there is no evidence that Hulrun ever asked Iomedae for her opinion or even the queen. Sadly at this point in his career Halrun had become little more than a half mad power hungry small minded fascist with delusions of Grandeur who could not be reasoned with by anyone.

Again, I think part of this is bad writing. The game never implies that Iomadae tells her servants things, as later chapters show. Still, it's not hard to have an misunderstanding.

First, someone attacks the monument. That is something demons would do. Then, a blind bearded elf nobody knows (and has some odd mannerisms) comes and speaks about the stone. Again, who is this guy, and why should people trust a random stranger (since Minhago tricking Staunton is a major piece of history)? Finally, the priests of Desna take the law into their own hands without any plan and accomplish nothing.

Think of it like this. Someone tried to steal your car a week ago but got arrested. When you go to the mall, a homeless person tells you that your car is in danger. You would probably question what this person is talking about. You later run into a group of teens that says your car is going to get stolen. They have no proof other than they had a dream about it. Later that day, you catch them trying to break into your car. They then tell you they were trying to protect it. Do you really think you are going to believe them?

Because the writing is vague, it is open for interpretation what was said. For all we know, he was busy with so many other issues (like a huge festival that would have a LOT of security risks). The priests of Desna all present as well meaning but incompetent when you talk to them (and they admit they didn't know what they were doing). The town also has a large cultist presence, so we don't know how thin the man is spread. Also, even if he somehow believed them, what could he do to help/fix the stone? Again, the vagueness of the writing leaves far too many questions. It's not like all he had to do was send a few priests to performs some rituals to fix the stone. If it were so, then I would agree it was some serious ineptitude on his part.

In addition, the attack kills the town's resident dragon and sends everything into chaos. He steps up and starts making decisions (though some are obviously better than others). He is obviously out doing something as he has been so weakened the party can kill him.

But, your final point (he cannot be reasoned with) is wrong. Litor notes that people around him help him stay grounded. He backs down from the MC if you show the light of heaven, so it shows that he is not so power hungry or full of himself that he will not listen. He eventually kicks the priests of Desna out but does not kill them (and I don't blame him for that). He is not the mad dog that cannot be redeemed and dies in a basement in chapter 3.

Characters like him and Regill would be killed on sight if this were the more stable world like the one in Kingmaker. They would be far too radical. When they exist in a world where demons are doing all kinds of horrible things without mercy, it makes sense why somebody would have to do some extreme things. The Eagle Watch is proof that the traditional "good guys" lack the power or the ability to deal with the threat before them. I don't blame people for killing him, but he is more morally grey than some put on.

[grognardgary]

Hulrun will not Accept anything out side the self limited scope of his faith. The angel sword gets his attention. Nothing else does and by then it is too late. It reminds me of an old story I once heard in church curiously enough. A man is vacationing in the Carribean when a hurricane blows up. Being a Christian he immediately fell to his knees and prayed to God to rescue him. The hotel he is in begins to shake and rattle in the wind so he flees out side and he a car pulls up and offers him a ride to a safe place and he says, "I'll be okay God will save me." He moves up the hill looks back and sees the sea comming up toward him and immediately gets to the highest spot he can find. And a boat pulls up and offers to take him to safety but again he says, "I'll be okay, God will save me"

The storm surge continues to rise around him and he begins to climb a nearby Tree. The tree is shaking in the wind and water and a helicopter shows up to save him and for the third time he waves off his ticket to safety saying, "God will save me." Shortly there after the waves and wind take the tree down and he Drowns. He awakens in heaven promptly runs up to God and says, "Why didn't you rescue me?" And God looks at him and says, My child I sent you a car a boat and a plane. What were you expecting? That's Hulrun's problem in a nut shell

[Vertigo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh grognardgary:

Hulrun will not Accept anything out side the self limited scope of his faith. The angel sword gets his attention. Nothing else does and by then it is too late. It reminds me of an old story I once heard in church curiously enough. A man is vacationing in the Carribean when a hurricane blows up. Being a Christian he immediately fell to his knees and prayed to God to rescue him. The hotel he is in begins to shake and rattle in the wind so he flees out side and he a car pulls up and offers him a ride to a safe place and he says, "I'll be okay God will save me." He moves up the hill looks back and sees the sea comming up toward him and immediately gets to the highest spot he can find. And a boat pulls up and offers to take him to safety but again he says, "I'll be okay, God will save me"

The storm surge continues to rise around him and he begins to climb a nearby Tree. The tree is shaking in the wind and water and a helicopter shows up to save him and for the third time he waves off his ticket to safety saying, "God will save me." Shortly there after the waves and wind take the tree down and he Drowns. He awakens in heaven promptly runs up to God and says, "Why didn't you rescue me?" And God looks at him and says, My child I sent you a car a boat and a plane. What were you expecting? That's Hulrun's problem in a nut shell

And I get what you are saying. The man is definitely close to falling off the deep end at that point in the game. Considering everything that happened (the demon attack, the death of Terendelev, all the cultists moving in the open), it would be enough to screw with anyone's psyche. Not only that, but all the people that know how to keep him balanced are not around. He is not wrong to disrespect Irabeth, because she has people turn on her right in front of her . That shows some really weak discipline and leadership. Since he is the one in charge, the blame falls on him. The man is obviously at probably near rock bottom at that point, so it makes perfect sense why it would take something akin to a miracle to come to his senses.

Should he survive, he is much calmer in later chapters and does not do anything radical. The ending even notes that he calms down significantly. It goes to show he is a byproduct of a terrible situation. Heck, most of the KC's companions have some sort of mental issue. Living in such a craptastic world would do a number on anyone's psyche. PTSD ios a serious issue for soldiers for a reason.

The problem I see with a lot of these discussions is we are trying to apply our peacetime mindsets to a world that is constantly at war. I am sure some people from certain European and Middle Eastern countries might have a different look on what one has to do to survive than us comfortable folks.

[veryinky]

I was replaying this DLC today and selected Bemir to distract the Demon archer in the book event that comes after the church. His solution is to grab one of the church refugees and use him as a human shield to block the arrows from the archer and then push him into the street so the archer can torture him with poisoned arrows while the rest of the team runs for cover.

Yes, nobody in the player's group dies. But Bemir is not someone who's 'safe' to be around.

[leyasu888]

I recall the npcs you save in the fires dlc give you some stuff in the lord of nothing dlc when you see them again later? Can't remember if Bemir gave me anything though but if he does then i do not regret covering for him one bit lol :p