Advice on most/least important dump stats?

[Laluzi]

I had an idea of how to distribute stats walking into WOTR, and I don't know if it's working well for me here.

Previously I was very content to dump strength on dex-focused characters. The consequences here were immediate – low enough strength and your character can't carry their own gear. But also, because weapon speed doesn't exist but weapon range does, composite longbows are by far the best ranged weapon available and they add strength modifiers to damage, so archers can't skip arm day.

So next time I tried to build an archer, I dumped con. Figured I could either go full Matrix-style dodge or just put them on a mount and it wouldn't matter anyway... but as soon as I hit act 2, I found that I was getting fatigued stupidly quickly traveling the map.

Can't dump intelligence or you get no skill points. Would dump wisdom, but this character is a hunter so it's one of their foci - and I've seen a lot of plot-relevant Will saves, so I don't know if that's a good idea anyway. And I normally like to put leftover points in charisma because persuasion is always so important, but between most checks being able to be handled by your party and the abundance of persuasion gear, I'm wondering if the strat is just to make your KC rizzless.

I know your primary stats are always going to change depending on class, but how do you guys distribute stats that your build doesn't focus on? On a general, classless character, which stats are most and least important?

[Razer]

All depends on class and archetype. Aside from that each stat has different benefits.

Intelligence is a bit in a bad spot since the nerf to skill points. You gain just as many for having 8 vs 10 and 12 only gives you a skill point each other level so you only gain full benefit at 14. Which is a 6 point investment.

You need to look at skills for most of these to see what you want out of it, but there's also other effects.

Dex gives reflex save, ac and initiative. It's pretty important for any character. Wis gives will save and lore skills. And so on.

I personally don't like dumping stats unless it makes absolute sense, which is hardly ever.

Dumping stats is only required on playing above core.

[mk11]

I look across the whole party for how much INT I need. Apart from Perception most skills don't benefit from having multiple characters sharing a skill. Mobility on mounted characters and UMD I suppose are exceptions. Persuasion only if you are going with intimidation attacks.

There are backgrounds that allow you to change the stat for Persuasion.

Bonus damage from STR on DEX-based characters is really only an early game thing. Later on you have so many bonuses to damage that 1 or 2 points less from stats is minor. You can also get belts that enhance STR&DEX so the carry weight issue isn't that critical.

You are correct on importance of WIS for saves and likewise CON. I'm unlikely to start any character with a CON less than 12 [unless planning on Lich] but equally don't think it is that important to have it higher.

If you are a high strength intimidation build you can still dump Charisma.

[Deo]

CHA easy dump on everyone, because there are zero interactions where YOU have to make persuasion/intimidation check. So other party member can cover that.

STR is dump on casters, but not on Alchemists (there was some wonky bug with Cognatogen and Exhausted interaction - STR drained to 0, you dead). Maybe fixed, I would not risk tho.

CON is never a dump stat, because you get fatiqued and exhausted faster while traveling. 12 is minimal for comfortable game.

INT can be dumped, but it's very annoying to play like that with 2 skillpoints on levelup (or even 1), and not worth the benefit. Can be dumped on a merc.

WIS is never a dump stat because your main character ONLY makes some very important Perception checks (including secret ending). Can be dumped on a merc.

DEX is 13 for 2h/reach/mounted martial, 16 for caster.

[Razer]

Originally posted by mk11:

I look across the whole party for how much INT I need. Apart from Perception most skills don't benefit from having multiple characters sharing a skill. Mobility on mounted characters and UMD I suppose are exceptions. Persuasion only if you are going with intimidation attacks.

There are backgrounds that allow you to change the stat for Persuasion.

Bonus damage from STR on DEX-based characters is really only an early game thing. Later on you have so many bonuses to damage that 1 or 2 points less from stats is minor. You can also get belts that enhance STR&DEX so the carry weight issue isn't that critical.

You are correct on importance of WIS for saves and likewise CON. I'm unlikely to start any character with a CON less than 12 [unless planning on Lich] but equally don't think it is that important to have it higher.

If you are a high strength intimidation build you can still dump Charisma.

I really hate the aspect of always using the highest skill character to pass a skill check. It makes sense in some interactions, but a lot don't.

[Laluzi]

Originally posted by Razer:

All depends on class and archetype. Aside from that each stat has different benefits.

Intelligence is a bit in a bad spot since the nerf to skill points. You gain just as many for having 8 vs 10 and 12 only gives you a skill point each other level so you only gain full benefit at 14. Which is a 6 point investment.

You need to look at skills for most of these to see what you want out of it, but there's also other effects.

Dex gives reflex save, ac and initiative. It's pretty important for any character. Wis gives will save and lore skills. And so on.

I personally don't like dumping stats unless it makes absolute sense, which is hardly ever.

Dumping stats is only required on playing above core.

Thank you, I would never have guessed - I'm used to each +1 mod on Intelligence counting for a flat skill point per level, so I didn't know that and that does decrease intelligence's value quite a bit.

I tend not to dump stats unless I can safely ignore it, but it's often a question of where to put the 10s, the 12s, and the 14s... and I was finding that I needed a lot of free skill points when I can't ignore STR or DEX for each other (because like you said, dexterity is so defensively important, I can't dump DEX on a STR character either), so I needed to squeeze from somewhere else.

And thanks for the replies, all, this is great info to have!

[Laluzi]

Originally posted by Razer:

I really hate the aspect of always using the highest skill character to pass a skill check. It makes sense in some interactions, but a lot don't.

It's particularly hilarious when Daeran is the one giving motivational speeches. Or I'm using a character's own persuasion stat to persuade them not to do something.

[Vertigo]

I would argue Cha is not a dump stat as long as you are going for a dreadful carnage build (which does wonders on kinetecists and ranged slayers). There is also a late game crown that lets you add your charisma to ranged attacks.

I usually dump int on my melees (unless they are dex builds) and cha everywhere else.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

I would argue Cha is not a dump stat as long as you are going for a dreadful carnage build (which does wonders on kinetecists and ranged slayers). There is also a late game crown that lets you add your charisma to ranged attacks.

I usually dump int on my melees (unless they are dex builds) and cha everywhere else.

Acolyte background says hi.

[RandomDude2018]

All depends. Too many variables.

STR is a dump stat for all DEX tanks and all casters.

DEX is a good dump stat too especially for a Paladin. On higher difficulties you can dump it on all casters.

CON you can dump if you go Lich.

INT is your best dump stat.

WIS is your second best dump stat. Perception you buff with items.

CHA is one of the best stats in the game for Lawful Good characters be it tank, melee dps or caster. I never go below 18. Best stat on your Paladin. I go 18/7/10/7/7/21 (maybe it was 12 CON, can't remember). You don't go CHA for persuasion checks. You do it because of the CHA to saves, CHA to AC (Scaled Fist), Smites, Paladin level 11 ability.

[Soul]

my sorcerer is typically...

10 strength... +0

16 dex.... +3

10 con.... +0

14 int.... +2

10 wis... +0

19 cha... +4

of course race plays into this... and for me to get these numbers I typically play a kitsune.... bonus to dex and cha.... and negative to strength...

now as to my reasoning as why I choose the stats this way.... is charisma is my primary stat.... hitting level 4 I get my first ability point and you get 4 other ability points as you level.... which would bring my charisma from 19 to 24.... an even number which provides a bonus....

dex is my second most important stat so I try to keep it second highest.... its used for AC and its used for ranged attacks... which as a evocation type caster is what I like to use.....

int for me is at 14 because sorcerers dont get a lot of skill points... this setup here allows me to specialize in an extra skill basically.... I prefer to go seeker sorcerer and I can level up trickery and make my sorcerer into one of the best trickery characters.... by Act 2 im already better at trickery with my sorcerer than other trickery party members like cam and woljif....

base sorcerer skill points are 2 per level... meaning i'd only be able to level 2 skills to 20.... having 14 int gives me a +2 bonus which divided in half is a +1 to my skills per level.... giving me 3 skill points per level... or 60 skill points vs 40 skill points a default sorcerer gets..... my skills typically are 19 persuasion, 19 trickery, 19 perception…. 1 UMD, arcana, stealth.....

just 1 point of stealth and my high dex I can get by as a primary stealth character for first 2 chapters just fine especially with the help of a cloak from tirabeth's house....

arcana at 1 is just for beginning of game to have the knowledge skill learned and my only character till Nenio that will do knowledge arcana checks....

Use magic device is low because my cha is so high that basically even at 1 point my bonuses will put it on par with other skills I devote points into...

my str... con.... and wis... are all 10's mainly because those are somewhat my "dump" stats....

like wis I dont worry about cause as a sorcerer my will saves are my best of the 3 saves.....

con I dont worry about because I do my best to avoid taking damage by having spells and positioning.....

str is at 10 though instead of 8 due to my racial.... because I want to be able to carry more personally and not fatigue so quickly... which is annoying fatiguing so quickly.... basically you wanna try to keep a light load on your character in order to prevent fatigue so quickly....

so thats how and why I choose what I choose.... a primary stat (cha)... a secondary stat (dex).... and a third stat (int for skills).... at 19, 16, 14... you could of course play around and adjust em a bit in your case.... but I find focusing on 3 to be best for my sorcerer....

which your ranger using bows relies on Dex and Str.... so those 2 are a given.... and since your invested in skills like me you could have int as your third stat.... but then again.... you have other party members too.... and a ranger has 4 skill points per level.... so that means you can max out 4 skills or do a mix like I did with those 4 skills... and if you have Nenio you basically have knowledge everything cause she's a perfect knowledge skill monkey...

[GunStarX]

The specific stats to dump are wholey class based. Party composition and role playing also factor in. If you are truly min maxing the stats, then rping consideration is the first to go. Party composition will allow you to sacrifice certain things if your party can compensate, like having a main character with 1 skill point.

Generally speaking
Melee only - dump int and cha. Will saves are typically bad, so you want at least 10 wis. Your main attack stat should be at 19 and the alternate (dex vs str) should be at least 13 for feat qualifications. TWF of ac focused builds could need higher dex. If you want to use persuasion you can take the acolyte background. The extra stat points go to constitution.

Melee caster - same as above but you need your caster stat within a few points of the max caster level, at the minimum. You can make up the difference with headbands. If the class gets high will saves you can sacrifice wis if it's not the casting stat. Some classes have dual mental stat requirements, so you won't want to dump the second mental stat below 10 for those. Your main attack stat might need to be 18 instead of 19.

Non melee Caster - dump str. Set your casting stat at 19 or 20 and you can dump the other mental stats if you need to. You want about 16 dex and some con. You don't have as many competing stats so you might not need to dump much.

Ranged dps non caster, an easy example
Str - 18
Dex - 19 (+5)
Con - 12
Int - 7
Wis - 10
Cha - 7

[dataseer21]

Int and cha are the normal dump stats that people use.

Strength it is mostly useful for melee characters. However you have seen the carry weight and encumbrance.

Dexterity is ac, initiative, ranged weapons and dex save. I don't value it as highly as some other people do unless they are attacking with dexterity. It still is important though don't get me wrong but I have had heavy armor characters have like 12 or 10 on dex.

Con is hit points and fortitude save. Fort save is pretty important. You found out with getting fatigued. But also a lot of the disease, poison, and necromancy type saves are fort saves. Unless you are speccing for it like I did in a play through though your fort saves won't be high enough to save against the crystals later unless you really go heavy into fotitude saves. I can't remember but I think I got my save to 65 walking around. Also you don't dump con because otherwise your main guy is just made of paper and will go down with a breeze.

Intelligence is tricky. Yeah you could dump Int. However there are some important skills in the game that will come up and bite you if you don't have them. Religion obviously and trickery. Perception is good to have. Some people swear by use magic device even though I don't utilize it to its full potential. Persuasion you must have to get a good ending I think. Athletics is important and I even think that mobility pops up here and there. You don't need that much but lore arcana if you want to identify items. Stealth lets you avoid being barraged by random encounters and can shave hours off of your game. That is what comes to mind so you need those skills in your party. Usually unless you have a dedicated skill monkey you need like 4 people sharing the burden of that. So one guy dumping int means that another can't actually. So dumping int isn't actually that good. You are making one character slightly stronger at the cost of your party dynamic. There are also some feats dependant on it but I never take them so I don't care. Still it is second more dumpable unless you are an int caster of course.

EDIT: One person does the checks but you need it high somewhere.

Wisdom is important for will saves. There are a lot of important wills saves. But protection from evil for some reason spares you from a lot of them. Confusion also comes out of nowhere and messes your ♥♥♥♥ up. It is arguable whether will or fort is more important of a save. In kingmaker they were a lot bigger on fear effects than in this game.

Charisma is important if you want to persuade or use magic device. If your guy isn't doing that then it is dumpable. Charisma is the most dumpable stat in my opinion. But you need one guy to master in it because persuasion is really important so you just take that pc everywhere.

[dataseer21]

Strength isn't crazy important for an archer in my opinion. Sure it adds to damage however I would only get it to like 16 or 14. Then put points into con in a reasonable way. Dex needs to be like 19 or 20 though. So I slightly disagree with what people are saying. I think that con is more important than people give it credit for. It is way more important in 5e but in pathfinder it would be nice to have like 12 or 14 for con. Eventually you are going to get hit and on higher difficulties it would be nice to not automatically reload the game because your guy is chunked. Or to waste your last stand for the day.

I guess that is also because I don't dump stats for whatever reason. I still have other attributes at 10.

[RandomDude2018]

For melee you dump INT and WIS. Not CHA. Stack STR and start with 18 CHA.

2 points of WIS equal +1 will save. LOL.

2 points of CHA can equal +2 (yes +2, not a typo) to all saves, +2 to hit against Chatoic Evil characters or +1 to hit against Evil ones.

If you dump CHA you are GIMPING youself.

You're also gimping yourself by playing ranged characters. Melee is king in this game.

I can understand people like to play on CORE or lower and like to RP but if you want to stomp unfair you go CHA.

[GunStarX]

Originally posted by RandomDude2018:

For melee you dump INT and WIS. Not CHA. Stack STR and start with 18 CHA.

2 points of WIS equal +1 will save. LOL.

2 points of CHA can equal +2 (yes +2, not a typo) to all saves, +2 to hit against Chatoic Evil characters or +1 to hit against Evil ones.

If you dump CHA you are GIMPING youself.

You're also gimping yourself by playing ranged characters. Melee is king in this game.

I can understand people like to play on CORE or lower and like to RP but if you want to stomp unfair you go CHA.

Unfair is not the standard, the vast majority of people don't play unfair. Unfair has a 0.7% completion rate. Your class selections and party composition are highly specialized. Try listing all of the classes and mythic paths you can't play as using your advice, vs advice given that works with all classes and all mythic paths.