**SPOILER**Ulbrig End of Chapter 4 Discussion

[EQFL_Sapare]

I re-iterate here because i mean it, this is full spoilers about vital plot events in the game, I wouldn't even write about it if it didn't irk me so much right now.

First i want to say, i love the choices and consequences, even the "lose a companion permanently" choices that do exist in the game. I have played through the whole game without Dearan and Nenio for choices I made. Lost Wenduage romance before for not being mean enough to her, all good sensible and roleplaying.

That said, this is about the talk you get forced into with Ulbrig after returning to the Midnight-fane. The final choice when he asks you to give him a reason for the warriors to trust him is kinda awful. Specifically, if you respond 5. "I don't know what to tell you.". The dude just straight up verbally spits in your face and walks out the party, no matter your relationship with him.(from what I can tell.)

Consider from my characters perspective, they have been helping Ulbrig figure himself out in this world, went through his whole quest, fell in love, had a romance with him, trusted to ride him through the abyss clouds, promised to always support him. Then they get caught off guard by the reveal about their power as much as all of them, still kinda figuring out what is going on with all that(plus being told they are bound to die from the wound), and this dude throws her straight under the buss because she wont give him an empty platitude about saving the world?

Thing is, I actually like the guy, he is well written so I consider this a writer error, but if it is intended to be his character, he is a horrible person. Imagine your best friend finds out you are a victim of some science experiment that gave you cancer and their first response is to insult you for being the victim and then to abandon you for not knowing how to best use the disease going forward.

(and i get he is superstitious, but this just doesn't make sense because you can give him as basic an answer as "I will annihilate the demons with their own weapon." and he goes (paraphrasing)"oh yea, that makes sense. I just remembered I love you and trust you completely". Which really makes it sound like he walks out not because of your powers, but because you are having a moment of uncertainty and not capable of formulating a response. BTW, this is twice as insane if you are planning to go mythic hero, because then you SHOULD be unsure how to respond)

Edit: I guess I add for context when it happened to me, as honestly I expect almost no one ever picked this option. I try strongly to stay to character and she often responded with "say nothing" or close to it.
https://youtu.be/JhmPHq9Wglk?t=4544
(time stamping doesn't seem to work well with embed, its 1:16:00. And no this is not to get views,i get 1 view a stream, i only really stream for my friend. But I want to show how extreme his disposition change is depending on your response, as I do both here back to back.)

[SotiCoto]

I wasn't really sure what to make of Ulbrig's behaviour there either...
I think what made it especially ridiculous in my case was that I was playing a Feyblood Sorcerer at the time, purely by coincidence... and was romancing Ulbrig purely for one of the achievements (he has a cheevo that only comes from romancing him)... but he wouldn't stop sh!t-talking fey and sorcerers, and my character was basically both.

... And then I hit that interaction and he starts throwing a temper tantrum because my character's Mythic powers came from Areelu .... and honestly I just wanted to go up and smack him in the face. I mean if he was totally fine with romancing a fey-blooded sorceress (despite constantly being an offensive old bastidge about it), how did it even BEGIN to make sense for him to start throwing a tantrum over this tiny issue?


Y'know..... funnily enough, this keeps happening in RPGs... Like I'm always playing an Arcane Spellcaster and end up romancing someone who hates arcane spellcasters... because they're like... the only option available, or the least awful option... or the only good option is gay and I'm playing the wrong gender (*cough DAI cough*).... or because achievements. In fact honestly it is usually achievements.

[dataseer21]

On some level this exact thing irritated me. That is why after the first time that I played with him I always tell him to leave before I get to the midnight fane or in demon city. I remember I had to beg him to stay or something and regretted it. So I just boot him now. In chap 2 and 3 his side quest is good for loot and experience then I kick him.

EDIT: I know that I do that in real life. Someone phrases something like you have to convince me. So I try to convince them but feel like it would have been better to walk. Like I remember I was playing dnd online and for one game they made me interview to be in it. Should have just left rather than sit through the interview. But then you look back and when they don't accept you, you realize that you actually lucked out and dodged a bullet. I have a number of times and stories like that.

[Vertigo]

I feel like Ulbrig is like Sten in DA:O. He considers you the leader, so you have to show you are the leader at all times. Characters like that tend to dislike uncertainty or signs of weakness.

But I get it. CRPGs can only have so many responses, and a group of players could RP that out in numerous ways. I think the overall writing in WotR is good, but stuff like this shows how not every character is equally written.

[EQFL_Sapare]

After thinking on it this long (really) my conclusion is that the easiest fix/issue with this interaction is that the final line does not seem to say what the text says, or the devs interpreted it different.
I feel like 5. should have said something closer to "I dont care if you trust me./I don't need you to trust me." which would match much better his outburst and unwillingness to stay around than the actually quite vulnerable "I don't know what to tell you.". I doubt this will ever change, but that would be a 5 second solution and make it much more obvious the player is not meant to pick this option unless they dont care about Ulbrig.

Now, I also want to take this post to go over why I choose it, specifically I feel like ALL of the other responses are awful.(at least for the character I was playing) So i will indulge myself and go through them:

1. "Wining this war is my destiny."
Unless you are playing an anime protagonists this is extremely off putting, most of all when you consider this should be the lowest point in your journey, you just found out that the power given to you was by the villains and you are dancing by their tune, plus you are slowly dying from corruption of that power. Depending on what you learned you also know that the war went poorly aboveground since you are gone, and if you go legend then destiny is about to be ripped out of of your hand.

2. "This army is build on trust, so I'm not going to justify myself to you or anyone. If any crusader doesn't trust me, they can go. But I have faith in my soldiers, and I know that most of them will follow me to the end."

The 2nd half is fine but the first half is effectively what I think 5. should have been, anyone who starts with "I am not going to justify myself to you or anyone" is probably already losing their audience because it sounds incredibly self important, just like 1. Being I lost the save file idk how he response but this honestly should be no less upsetting than 5. if anything its even less committal.

3. "Areelu has given me the power to destroy her. I will annihilate the demons with their own weapon."

This is what I ended up going with because its the least offensive, but it is also extremely hollow, effectively you just going "trust me bro, i'll own them.". If you are her puppet this means absolutely nothing, if you are not her puppet then why is he flipping out. This is the empty platitude I was referring to in my OP.

4. "I've led you to one victory after another since you joined me. Yes, what Areelu said is a heavy blow, but under my leadership, we've suffered worse and survived."

Besides him earlier in the conversation questioning if every victory was staged, which kinda undermines this, I am ok with this one but find the ending to really undercut it. If we have suffered worse and survived is extremely subjective, and considering he is willing to walk out on this but nothing else before, that means to his subjective opinion it is not true. This also concedes that Areelu has landed a blow on you with her machinations but if you are still kinda in disbelieve, or feel like the whole picture hasn't been revealed, then this just doesn't add up. I be honest and say this is probably the best default choice? But it was way to wordy for my character.

TLDR, to some degree every choice makes the main character feel very self important and like they have become deeply aware they are destined to win the campaign, rather than a character who just had the boots pulled away under them by the biggest plot twist in the game.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by EQFL_Sapare:

2. "This army is build on trust, so I'm not going to justify myself to you or anyone. If any crusader doesn't trust me, they can go. But I have faith in my soldiers, and I know that most of them will follow me to the end."

The 2nd half is fine but the first half is effectively what I think 5. should have been, anyone who starts with "I am not going to justify myself to you or anyone" is probably already losing their audience because it sounds incredibly self important, just like 1. Being I lost the save file idk how he response but this honestly should be no less upsetting than 5. if anything its even less committal.

I disagree, and I don't have to explain why...

Just kidding. I think you are reading it wrong. I don't think it's being arrogant. It's rather plain. I'll word it differently.

"This army is built on trust, and I am not forcing anyone to stick with it. I have faith in those that fight with me, and I know they will see it through to the end."

There is nothing wrong with saying "I am not going to justify myself." The KC realizes they have been thrown into a strange situation due to their powers. They see some are drawn to it, some fear it, and others want it. Everyone wants to have a say in how that power is used (like the war councils) when most never stop to think about what the KC is also going through.

Being a leader means making decisions. There is no way to please everyone. There is no way to help everyone. You have to make the best decision you can at the time. I think Regill said it best during a war council: while it perfectly natural for subordinates to have questions, people will eventually question everything. Sometimes you have to lead the ship.

Did you bow to Konomi every time she disagreed with you? If not, then you proved my above point.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by dataseer21:

Someone phrases something like you have to convince me. So I try to convince them but feel like it would have been better to walk. Like I remember I was playing dnd online and for one game they made me interview to be in it. Should have just left rather than sit through the interview. But then you look back and when they don't accept you, you realize that you actually lucked out and dodged a bullet. I have a number of times and stories like that.

What exactly is wrong with being in an "interview?" It is a reasonable vetting tool, especially when you deal with P&P. Let's face it: this subculture has some real undesirables. There are people that have never heard of hygiene. There are people that are compensating for their own inadequacies by playing a self insert. There are also creeps and people one would never want in their house.

On the flip side of the coin, you get to see what the DM is like. Are they a control freak? Do they want to preach some ideology through a game? Are they going to railroad, or do they like freedom?

Both the player and the DM are making a sacrifice of time and energy to make a game happen. I think an interview/screening (when done right) can help people find out if they are a good fit with others.

[SotiCoto]

Originally posted by dataseer21:

I know that I do that in real life. Someone phrases something like you have to convince me. So I try to convince them but feel like it would have been better to walk. Like I remember I was playing dnd online and for one game they made me interview to be in it. Should have just left rather than sit through the interview. But then you look back and when they don't accept you, you realize that you actually lucked out and dodged a bullet. I have a number of times and stories like that.

I get that. Though I guess it depends how desperate you are to be a part of something.
Still, when you have to go through an interview for any sort of group, be it tabletop roleplaying or a job, you can tell a few things from it:

#1. More people want to participate than are allowed to, so those running it have to determine who is best for the role.... by their definition of "best" at least.

#2. What you want doesn't matter to them. Who you are doesn't matter to them. You're almost certainly going to pass or fail entirely on your ability to conform to their desires.

#3. You will be under constant scrutiny while participating even if you did pass the interview.

I'd definitely find all of those factors incredibly off-putting for something that is meant to be fun.

Originally posted by EQFL_Sapare:

2. "This army is build on trust, so I'm not going to justify myself to you or anyone. If any crusader doesn't trust me, they can go. But I have faith in my soldiers, and I know that most of them will follow me to the end."

The 2nd half is fine but the first half is effectively what I think 5. should have been, anyone who starts with "I am not going to justify myself to you or anyone" is probably already losing their audience because it sounds incredibly self important, just like 1. Being I lost the save file idk how he response but this honestly should be no less upsetting than 5. if anything its even less committal.

I'd say the opposite. The first half is fine but the second sounds stupid and pointless.
The moment "faith" is brought into it, the speaker sounds like a witless, naive clown.
It should basically just be: "What I have to do doesn't change whether anyone believes in me or not. I'm going to finish this, on my own if I must, and everyone else is free to choose for themselves if they want to be a part of it."

[dataseer21]

yeah soticoto I am glad later after thinking about it that they didn't take me into their game. There were other red flags like the person that was organizing and doing the interviewing and the game weren't the dm. They were going to pick the dm who they would have power over or something like that. Later I was thinking that was a game that would give me emotional damage.

Reminded me of when I dmed a game and the someone else had power over the game online. I wanted more people in the game but they just didn't let me. I ended up leaving after a series of mind games where the people made excuses where they couldn't play.