Magic as a rogue

[Leto]

I'm a bit unsure whether to combine the Eldritch Scoundrel with the Arcane Trickster, or whether I'd rather go for the full 20lvl Eldritch Scoundrel.
Which is more effective?

[Schlumpsha]

Depends what you want to get out of your build. Go full Arcane Trickster if you want to deal sneak attacks with all damage spells. Getting to disarm traps from a distant is a nice bonus as well.

[Mr. Darcion]

I'm going for:

1 lvl Vivisectionist (For 1d6 sneak attack)
1 lvl Underground Chemist (For 2d6 sneak attack)
4 lvl Enlightened Philosopher (To open up cures, Knowledge World focus and nature path to get CHA to AC)
5 lvl Seeker (Sorcerer) (Needed to pickup some CHA blaster and we will be need trickery)
10 lvl Mystic Theurge (This allows greater flexibility with spells and +10 CL for Oracle and Sorc)
9 lvl Loremaster (To get some cool additional spells and +9 CL for oracle)
10 lvl Arcane Trickster (To get sneak attack damage for spells and +10 CL for Sorc)
2 Mlvl Mythic hero (Enduring Spells & Greater Enduring Spells)
5 Mlvl Angel (Got to get level 10 spells and 24h Sun Form +15 AC & Sun Marked +8d6 holy damage :O)
3 Mlvl Legend

This will result CL 25 Sorc & CL 33 Oracle/Sorcerer that can cast all spells under 24h greater invisibility and spells will also do sneak attack and extra holy damage. And she will provide many many many 24h buffs that would normally last only for 1 turn or minute/level.

She also works incredibly well as a blaster tank, sense her naked AC while buffed will be in the 50 AC range. With gear she will have around 70 AC and can use maximized vampiric touch, false lifes, heroisim, cures, immunities, etc. to make her an absolutely immovable object.... Or so I am hoping for :D

[Razer]

Do you want to be a spellcaster or a rogue? Eldritch Scoundrel can do both, but gets upto level 6 spells. There's a similar class under alchemist called Vivisectionist. It's a popular class due to the fact that you can treat personal spells as target spells if you take the Infusion ability at level 2. Like Shield for example to grant your entire party the +4 to AC. So if you just want buffs I think Vivisectionist is the better route at least for 5 levels and after that you can do whatever you want. Reason being you can take greater enduring spells later on and with 5 minute spells will become 24h spells. Hence the 5 levels. Alchemist don't get any offensive spells though.

Arcane Trickster is a low BAB class so it will hit your Attack stat pretty hard. You will lose on extra attacks per round, but you will gain the ability to use any offensive damaging spell to allow sneak attacks. Without this class you can still add sneak attack to spells, but it only works for spells that have a touch attack. Like scorching ray for instance. It wouldn't work on fireball. So if you want it to work on other spells then you'd have to take Arcane Trickster. You could go with Chain Lightning and hit everyone for the extra sneak dice on top as long as it allows for sneak dice (ie. enemy is flanked).

Still think Ray attacks are best because most enemies will not count as flanked because it relies on your party positioning. If you just want ray attacks and also be able to use a weapon then go with Eldritch Scoundrel all the way. Eldritch Scoundrel can also use ray of frost to deal sneak damage. So later in the game with maxed stats you're looking at a 1d3 ray of frost spell that adds a max of 22d6 sneak damage (depending on buffs, feats and mythic path). Better than a fireball ;)

If you want the damaging route with any spell do not take vivisectionist because you will lose on spell penetration levels and enemies later in the game have high spell resistance you need to pierce.

[Leto]

ah ok should have written what it is about, my thought was just a rogue who can do enough magic on the side, buffs a little bit cc
but the main task is to kill opponents with sneak attack, which as i noted can easily be done without stealth

[Belegc]

please note that Sneak attack only apply on the first ray/bolt. it was fixed in a previous patch.
I don't remember the math, but in general its better to go bolstered (they are mutually exclusive). unless you want to use cantrips mainly.

Eldritch scoundrel can debuff enemies with the sneak talents which can be significant.

if you go trickster, you can use the completely-normal-metamgic to make snowball a cantrip and then use the sneak attacks. its 5d6+Sneak no-save no-Spell penetration. add intensified (with the mythic ability) for additional 5d6 for a total of 10d6+sneak. you can use rods for maximize/empower as well.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Leto:

ah ok should have written what it is about, my thought was just a rogue who can do enough magic on the side, buffs a little bit cc
but the main task is to kill opponents with sneak attack, which as i noted can easily be done without stealth

You mean weapon attacks? If you want to use weapons I wouldn't bother with Arcane Trickster. If you only want to focus on weapons for main damage and be able to do stuff on the side with spells then Eldritch Scoundrel 20 is fine. If enemy spell resistance doesn't bother you much you can still opt into Vivisectionist 5 Eldritch Scoundrel 15. Mind you, this route will lack some oomph in terms of spell penetration, so be mindful of that. On the other hand, if you're planning to bring Woljif with you then you can forego this path as he is already an eldritch scoundrel and you can turn him into a full vivisectionist later or do vivi 5 eldritch scoundrel 15 if you want. Or anything else. In terms of usefulness 5 levels of vivi is good enough. you can turn him into a slayer after that too if you want to be able to hit things better.

[hilburnashua]

As a rogue you can also make use of UMD and just use scrolls to buff yourself before a fight. Have Nenio take metamagic - extend spell and apply it to a buff and you can make a scroll with that metamagic.

[Razer]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

As a rogue you can also make use of UMD and just use scrolls to buff yourself before a fight. Have Nenio take metamagic - extend spell and apply it to a buff and you can make a scroll with that metamagic.

Any character can use umd, and it's kind of useful only for per 1 round per level spells such as haste and displacement. But honestly you're probably better off using a spellcaster in your party for those things like a Brown Fur Transmuter or something similar as they can so many casts you can use these spells often enough to last you a whole dungeon. Scrolls are there if you don't have any casts left really. Which hardly happens. Scrolls and potions are very useful early game though, not so much later on.

[winter]

Unless you have a very specific goal in mind, I'd say combining them is a bad idea. Eldritch scoundrel is a half caster already. Arcane trickster carries forward the spell progression of the spellbook it inherits, so it'll stay a half caster for all it's levels when you could have taken a full caster's spellbook instead.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by Belegc:

please note that Sneak attack only apply on the first ray/bolt. it was fixed in a previous patch.
I don't remember the math, but in general its better to go bolstered (they are mutually exclusive). unless you want to use cantrips mainly.

This is where the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells capstone comes into play. No need to bother with single target rays or touch spells for sneak attacks anymore. Now we can enjoy sneaky AoE's too.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Originally posted by Belegc:

please note that Sneak attack only apply on the first ray/bolt. it was fixed in a previous patch.
I don't remember the math, but in general its better to go bolstered (they are mutually exclusive). unless you want to use cantrips mainly.

This is where the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells capstone comes into play. No need to bother with single target rays or touch spells for sneak attacks anymore. Now we can enjoy sneaky AoE's too.

Genuin question. How often do you get to apply sneak on multiple enemies unless you do a surprise attack?

[Erei]

Elritch scoundrel is a budget mage and a budget rogue. Rogue is not exactly the best class to begin with (slayer say "hi"), except for some cheese interaction. And then it's a nerfed version. on the other hand you only get half progression compared to your average caster.
I imagine most people only take 1-2level of ES for some reason and not much more. It's usually my one level dip for mage armor+shield.

If you want to make an hybrid melee/arcane (or range/arcane), then a magus subclass is better. Sword saint will get the same BAB, same arcane stuff, but LOTS more (like int for AC). You lose on sneak attack, true, but you gain a lot more elsewhere.
If you want to cast magic with sneak attack, then it's best to go arcane trickster through a caster class (sorcerer best IMO).

You may want to consider (if you want ranged stuff) to go eldritch archer (magus) - devil mythic path. Devil get you infinite hellfire ray that you can "weave" as part as your attacks.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Leto:

I'm a bit unsure whether to combine the Eldritch Scoundrel with the Arcane Trickster, or whether I'd rather go for the full 20lvl Eldritch Scoundrel.
Which is more effective?

So for history, the arcane trickster was part of early pathfinder, and the eldrich scoundrel was added later.

I feel like the eldrich scoundrel was intended to replace the need for an arcane trickster. Pathfinder never removes old stuff, when obsolete, so it's all still there, but I think the eldritch scoundrel isn't intended "feed into" an arcane trickster build, it's more intended to remove the need for for an arcane trickster.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Originally posted by Leto:

I'm a bit unsure whether to combine the Eldritch Scoundrel with the Arcane Trickster, or whether I'd rather go for the full 20lvl Eldritch Scoundrel.
Which is more effective?

So for history, the arcane trickster was part of early pathfinder, and the eldrich scoundrel was added later.

I feel like the eldrich scoundrel was intended to replace the need for an arcane trickster. Pathfinder never removes old stuff, when obsolete, so it's all still there, but I think the eldritch scoundrel isn't intended "feed into" an arcane trickster build, it's more intended to remove the need for for an arcane trickster.

To be fair Eldritch Scoundrel allows rapid start of Arcane Trickster without losing spellcasting levels since it has all requirements. Otherwise you'd need to go 3 Rogue anyway for getting 2d6 sneak and lose spellcasting progression. Or 3 Vivisectionist. But then vivi doesn't grant offensive spells so you'd be gimping yourself. Maybe you can go 1 rogue level and take the sneak skill? Not sure if that allows for the Arcane Trickster, but it seems like it should. But then you lose a feat and still a single spellcasting level. Which is probably not that bad. I never built an Arcane Trickster.

[Erei]

Originally posted by Razer:

To be fair Eldritch Scoundrel allows rapid start of Arcane Trickster without losing spellcasting levels since it has all requirements. Otherwise you'd need to go 3 Rogue anyway for getting 2d6 sneak and lose spellcasting progression. Or 3 Vivisectionist. But then vivi doesn't grant offensive spells so you'd be gimping yourself. Maybe you can go 1 rogue level and take the sneak skill? Not sure if that allows for the Arcane Trickster, but it seems like it should. But then you lose a feat and still a single spellcasting level. Which is probably not that bad. I never built an Arcane Trickster.

I don't know, I never tried, but would it be possible to use the book that give SA (IIRC it's in the baphomet labyrinth) + the extra SA feat to give the needed SA ? With 1 rogue level we have 3 SA level total. You can always respec when you get the book (since you keep its bonus).

As for vivi or rogue, if it's a small dip, offensive cast are trash anyway. They use the caster level, which will stay super low because it's a dip.