When was Shield bashing nerfed?

[Jiroa]

Since this game lauched you always got a -2 penalty to attack no matter what shield you used to bash but i loaded into on of my builds earlier and now Heavy shields give a -4 penalty and that kills bahsing builds almost completly as all to good bash shields are heavy shields.

Why is this a thing? bashing builds are already the most niche thing around.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Jiroa:

Since this game lauched you always got a -2 penalty to attack no matter what shield you used to bash but i loaded into on of my builds earlier and now Heavy shields give a -4 penalty and that kills bahsing builds almost completly as all to good bash shields are heavy shields.

Why is this a thing? bashing builds are already the most niche thing around.

I think you are probably confusing the penalty to attack with shields and the two weapon fighting penalty.

Heavy shields are one-handed weapons.

Though there could be something new I haven't noticed yet.

[Jiroa]

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Originally posted by Jiroa:

Since this game lauched you always got a -2 penalty to attack no matter what shield you used to bash but i loaded into on of my builds earlier and now Heavy shields give a -4 penalty and that kills bahsing builds almost completly as all to good bash shields are heavy shields.

Why is this a thing? bashing builds are already the most niche thing around.

I think you are probably confusing the penalty to attack with shields and the two weapon fighting penalty.

Heavy shields are one-handed weapons.

Though there could be something new I haven't noticed yet.

I'm not confusing anything, on that build i used to have a -2/2 penalty to attack using a heavy shield and now it's -4/4 and -2/2 if i use a light shield.

Heavy shields have always only giving a -2/2 penalty to attack when using them as a off-hand to attack since the game lauched.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Jiroa:

Originally posted by Chronocide:

I think you are probably confusing the penalty to attack with shields and the two weapon fighting penalty.

Heavy shields are one-handed weapons.

Though there could be something new I haven't noticed yet.

I'm not confusing anything, on that build i used to have a -2/2 penalty to attack using a heavy shield and now it's -4/4 and -2/2 if i use a light shield.

Heavy shields have always only giving a -2/2 penalty to attack when using them as a off-hand to attack since the game lauched.

What is your other weapon?

Any chance your other weapon was light before, and now you are pairing two one-handed weapons?

With two weapon fighting feat, and two one-handed weapons, you should be -4/-4. This is reduced to -2/-2 if the "off hand" weapon is light.

[Chronocide]

If you have the shield master feat, says it ignores any penalties to attack for having a shield.

does something totally different in the pen & paper...

[kaymarciy]

Yes, it was switched to be in accordance with Tabletop rules. Heavy Shields are heavy weapons, so the penalty is higher. I used to be adding this myself in Way of the Shield mod. Guess can remove the transpiler now. How curious. Don't think it was this way before DLC6

[GunStarX]

Shield master is mandatory, it not only gets rid of the heavy shield penalty, but it also gets rid of the TWF penalty with a shield so you don't have to waste a mythic feat

[Jiroa]

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Shield master is mandatory, it not only gets rid of the heavy shield penalty, but it also gets rid of the TWF penalty with a shield so you don't have to waste a mythic feat

The problem is Shield master requires a massive 11 BAB to get and that's now made shield bash build unviable for none-martial classes and even if you are a Martial class you need to be level 11 to Start your build.

If they removed the BAB required for Shield master i would have no problem for this but locking a build that already require twice as many feats as just normal Dual-Weilding behind a 11 BAB feat is rediculous.

[GunStarX]

Originally posted by Jiroa:

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Shield master is mandatory, it not only gets rid of the heavy shield penalty, but it also gets rid of the TWF penalty with a shield so you don't have to waste a mythic feat

The problem is Shield master requires a massive 11 BAB to get and that's now made shield bash build unviable for none-martial classes and even if you are a Martial class you need to be level 11 to Start your build.

If they removed the BAB required for Shield master i would have no problem for this but locking a build that already require twice as many feats as just normal Dual-Weilding behind a 11 BAB feat is rediculous.

You can also get it at level 6 from ranger weapon and shield combat style, but yeah it's an investment for a non full martial class

[Razer]

Originally posted by Jiroa:

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Shield master is mandatory, it not only gets rid of the heavy shield penalty, but it also gets rid of the TWF penalty with a shield so you don't have to waste a mythic feat

The problem is Shield master requires a massive 11 BAB to get and that's now made shield bash build unviable for none-martial classes and even if you are a Martial class you need to be level 11 to Start your build.

If they removed the BAB required for Shield master i would have no problem for this but locking a build that already require twice as many feats as just normal Dual-Weilding behind a 11 BAB feat is rediculous.

Some classes can circumvent that I believe. Warpriest?

[Jiroa]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Jiroa:

The problem is Shield master requires a massive 11 BAB to get and that's now made shield bash build unviable for none-martial classes and even if you are a Martial class you need to be level 11 to Start your build.

If they removed the BAB required for Shield master i would have no problem for this but locking a build that already require twice as many feats as just normal Dual-Weilding behind a 11 BAB feat is rediculous.

Some classes can circumvent that I believe. Warpriest?

Yes sure you can still make it work on classes that were already built around it. I'm just mostly sad that before this change most classes could make shield bashing work whit some decent feat planning or minimal class dips and after this change it's become a build that only a few select classes can use or it's something you respec into in the late game.

[Cutlass Jack]

Shield bashing is pretty awesome on a high dex Cult Leader. Light Shields are finessable.
You can sneak attack with them, and if you take weapon focus (light shield) your damage gets boosted even higher. (2d8 per hit)

If I wanted to do a heavy shield basher, I'd probably go Titan Fighter and be sure to grab the Heavy Shield mythic for even more damage when someone hits you. And you'd get plenty of bonus feats to get all those extra bashing feats in.

[Deo]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Heavy Shield mythic for even more damage when someone hits you

Damage gets eaten by enemy's DR, sadly. Same story as Destructive Shockwave.

[Jiroa]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Shield bashing is pretty awesome on a high dex Cult Leader. Light Shields are finessable.
You can sneak attack with them, and if you take weapon focus (light shield) your damage gets boosted even higher. (2d8 per hit)

If I wanted to do a heavy shield basher, I'd probably go Titan Fighter and be sure to grab the Heavy Shield mythic for even more damage when someone hits you. And you'd get plenty of bonus feats to get all those extra bashing feats in.

The strongest shield bash build i did was a 1 fighter/19 Vivi using Medical discovery combat trick to grab all the feats while still having enough left overs to get Greater cleave/Finish oportunist and upgrade my mutagen.

I grabbed always a chance mythic ability(To prevent great cleave chain from fumbling on a 1) then run in whit legendary proportions and great cleave whit a scimitar. Every crit triggers bashing finish and every kill triggers cleaving finish and this is all done whit full sneak attack progression and potentially full BAB when using transfomation.

You can still make this work but you would play as a normal dual wielder whit the shield spell until you get bashing finish then use a light shield and then a heavy shield at level 15.

[GunStarX]

I think a possible reason for the "balance" adjustment was they also made shield bashing potential much stronger with a couple new feats. You can now apply a -2 ac penalty and attempt to trip from a shield bash

[Jiroa]

Originally posted by GunStarX:

I think a possible reason for the "balance" adjustment was they also made shield bashing potential much stronger with a couple new feats. You can now apply a -2 ac penalty and attempt to trip from a shield bash

Those are already gated by needing 6-8 fighter levels and 6-11 BAB to get them. Most classes can't have access to them unless you go Golden dragon and use your Dragon feats to nab those but by then you are already level 20.