Paladin for first play through

[BrannFox]

I am going to start my first play-through as a Paladin. Before I start digging I obviously want to go Paladin two handed sword. Are they viable? Are they damage dealers or mainly tank/healers? In most CRPG's, the best defense is to slaughter the enemies before they can do much damage. So will a Two handed strength/Charisma Paladin be viable?

[Outlaw]

On difficulty levels below 'unfair', the main character can use any build and complete the game without problems. You also have 5 companions.

[Razer]

If you want to take Seelah along I would look into the new Archetype if you can that's called "Tortured Crusader". It doesn't get a horse (which I personally don't care about), but it does get some different things. It loses Smite evil, but that doesn't stack, so if you have Seelah you can utilize the class better. It does get bonus combat feats as a fighter so that's nice.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Only way Fighter is out-competing Paladin is with some kind of very peculiar multi-class (fighter dips can be amazing) or Legend for 20 levels in some other mounted class with full BAB. Mounted is THAT good.

This is doubly so since smites and mark of justice are amazing when you’re almost always fighting evil enemies.

Although with some meta knowledge- One could also get freebie mounts via Azata and figurine. Both have negatives over simply having it integrated in your build.

Let's smite evil or fighter....Fighter will have +5 to hit for weapon training, a further +1 from greater weapon focus (requires fighter level 8). And then fighter ignores 10 DR via greater penetrating strike (which is not all DR, but how much DR do most things have?). And then Fighter also has +10 damage via weapon training, and an extra +4 damage via the two weapon specialization feats. So the fighter weapon has +1x crit multiplier.

So +6 to hit, +14 damage, ignores 10 DR, and +1 crit multiplier. That's before you add in feats that non-fighters can take, such as power attack. And fighter's thing works via every enemy, not just evil ones and not just when smite is used.

Oh, and the fighter can just dump CHA, while the paladin has to lower their potential physical/mental stats to have the higher CHA (well, suppose undead fighter would need the CHA).

And the paladin has half as many feats. And the paladin is impaired by their armor, while the fighter is moving at full speed with reduced penalties to skills.

But the paladin has other things which help it. It can heal and proselytize and has a church backing it and good reputation, and so forth. Fighters don't really have these things.

Plus the fighter can take weapons and gear, and can use magic device, same as the paladin, so there's not really a shortage of options to overcome any "weaknesses" that the fighter has over the paladin.

[IlluminaZero]

I really don’t think you’ve ever used mounted by what you’re writing. Doubly so in turn based mode where you can really optimize actions and basically end most fights before the enemy moves.

Most obviously the Paladin’s mobility is NOT impaired by their armor while mounted for example.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by BrannFox:

Are they viable? Are they damage dealers or mainly tank/healers? In most CRPG's, the best defense is to slaughter the enemies before they can do much damage. So will a Two handed strength/Charisma Paladin be viable?

Viable, yes, every class is viable, and paladins are certain viable. As mentioned above, since most enemies are demons and other forces of evil, they definitely have an edge. Plus the plot, as a whole, makes more sense for paladins than it does for certain other classes.

Damage dealers or healers. The paladin is a fighter with a touch of cleric - that is to say they are a little less damage focused than a fighter, while a little more healer focused. So you have some cool heals and will fight almost as good as the best fighter (which is plenty on the fighter end), but you might want to look into a dedicated healer for the party.

Tanks....so pathfinder doesn't really do a taunt mechanic. If you can, killing them quickly before they kill you is definitely a viable approach. It doesn't always work....durable classes are nice to have in the party for that reason, and the paladin can certainly be durable.

As for stats, your paladin will basically want some in all areas....weak point to the class, perhaps, is that it really wants lots of every stat and you only get the same as every other class. You might want to aim to be more "above average" than "high" in your primary stats, so you can have Dex and Con and INT and WIS in addition to your CHA and STR.

Regarding 2 handed weapon vs other weapons. So at low levels, the weapon's damage matters a lot. At higher levels, your skills will make the 2d6 of a greatsword vs the 1d8 of a longsword seem rather unimportant. And as a paladin, you don't need to commit to a particular weapon type. Your weapon choice versatility is one of the strong points of a paladin (unlike a fighter whom needs to specialize).

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

I really don’t think you’ve ever used mounted by what you’re writing. Doubly so in turn based mode where you can really optimize actions and basically end most fights before the enemy moves.

Most obviously the Paladin’s mobility is NOT impaired by their armor while mounted for example.

All of the fighter's stuff I listed also applies to a fighter with a ranged weapon. The mount adds very little over a fighter with a composite longbow, especially with the WotR cheese, where players don't have limits on ammo for ranged weapons and crossbows don't need to waste time reloading.

Plus, didn't even mention the mythic end of the fighter.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

I really don’t think you’ve ever used mounted by what you’re writing. Doubly so in turn based mode where you can really optimize actions and basically end most fights before the enemy moves.

Most obviously the Paladin’s mobility is NOT impaired by their armor while mounted for example.

Any ranged character does not need mobility, and will have full round attacks every round. And for damage dealing You take someone with sneak attacks - only thing You need is 2 guy in melee, so they get the sneak attacks.

Or Kineticist - damage dealer without sneak attacks.

Or later spells.

Or other classes which have unique damage abilities.

For damage dealing a paladin is a bit lower on the list imho.

And one doesn´t need turn based to end 98% of all fights in one round, as that is the game design. If the fight takes longer than 2 rounds, You will usually lose, except it´s a scripted battle. Either You win without effort, or the enemy wins without effort - and a reload can yield the opposite result, if You don´t min max it extremely.

And like someone else said above - if You play on core - You can go through the game with any build, while some are easier than others. A paladin with a greatsword is probably easier than a crusader with a greatsword. And i went though the game without any pet, except for Bismut. But if You play it the first time - blind - it will be frustrating no matter what, because of the game mechanics, the encounter design, the lacking QoL features, and ze bugs - not the class choice, which is the smallest problem one could imagine compared to that - while it is helpful to know that around half of the options in the game are only filler content, which nobody would choose - and certain kinds of builds will mostly choose the same feats all over again. Even more so when the most OP thing are pets, and the second most OP thing are critical hits - as these two give You many more attacks per turn, the latter with the teamwork feats.

[dataseer21]

The strength of paladins(having just started playing again with my 3 paladin game) is smite into mark of justice, then divine grace which adds charisma to saves which for a +4 cha mod is like 6 feats, then a pet(I don't go pet because I don't want to deal with them but they are really powerful), they have non mark of justice paladins which are good too because paladins have auras which give immunities. Then something which I don't really use that much which is mercies(don't know why I just don't use it). With full BAB and all proficiencies. People are saying paladin is bad but I have used 1 in most games because of mark of justice. Adding like +7 to hit and +20 damage for all companions potentially is really strong. Especially when you combine it with a build that gets a lot of attacks.

I'm doing 3 paladins for lots of smites because I want to. It isn't optimal. More than 1 mark of justice paladin is redundant.

[IlluminaZero]

It’s seriously stretching if the basic argument is “mounted isn’t important because ranged!” That’s a ridiculous statement and doubly so with Outflank (not only is out-flank generically amazing with melee - The pet GIVES flanking and can also have out-flank), how easy it is to boost strength, how mounted mobility allows you to move FARTHER than max range of ranged weapons (AND obstructions like walls - later on you’re always going to be hasted) + get full attack, how mounts help with encumbrance, how mounts help with tanking, and more.

Paladins are NOT outperformed by Fighters. Mounted is THAT good. As before your lack of experience using mounted is obvious with such an absurd statement as Paladins being lower mobility.

[Triple G]

I never said mounted isn´t important because ranged. Mounted is mainly for the additional AC on the pet, and nobody could target You, so it´s a defensive thing. If You want to deal damage fast - ranged does the job. By the time the mounted char reaches the target it´s already dead, when You caught them flatfooted, and they don´t need to move to full attack the next one, while they can also do AoE attacks..

Paladin brings nothing to the table if it´s about dealing damage - except for smite and mark of justice. It brings the pet, but any pet class can have one - or alternatively it brings some damage features, which are subpar - and limited in use.

[IlluminaZero]

Mounted is not just a defensive thing by a long shot. If you seriously believe that you’ve never tried it. Outflank and *greater than max missile range non-linear full-attack mobility* should make that obvious. It’s actually legitimately ridiculous to make such claims.

Doubly so since it seems you are implying that melee damage is strictly inferior. Which is even more ridiculous.

[Triple G]

I have not said that melee damage is inferior. I said that a paladin doesn´t bring anything damage dealing to the table, like many other classes do - i mentioned sneak attack damage, which are like 10d6 more, usually You would dual wield, so You have like 60d6 more if all additional attacks hit.

And for normal play a ranged character can always have full attack rounds, as he doesn´t need to move, and a ranged character also has additional attacks.

I also mentioned spells, which deal a lot of damage late game.

I never said a paladin is bad or anything, i just said it´s not a first, or even good choice, as damage dealer, as the paladin is more a defensive and supportive class. Even more so, when he can heal with various abilities, which are all quite nice in defense, and for the saving throws.

The feats a paladin can take - are not exclusive to a paladin, and the pet he gets is not exclusive for the paladin, while other classes make more use of the pets, as they have certain abilities and / or spells to support them. And one doesn´t need a pet on core difficulty. Any 2 people at the same enemy can make use of outflank, and enable sneak attack damage.

TL;DR:
All i say is that there are better classes for damage dealing. While for some reason You say that a paladin is a great damage dealer. Of course he could deal good damage, but other classes would outperform him in that department, because they have more attacks, or better offensive abilities.

[IlluminaZero]

Paladin has full BAB and smites / mark of justice are amazing. Just no. Unless you are something like Sohei the difference is negligible and may even be in the Paladin’s favor.

Your point about range doesn’t make sense in either turn based or real time either. In turn based mounted has MORE effective range than unmounted bow due to ridiculous movement. In real time the ranged character will still move-> attack on the first turn and may randomly do that as the fight progresses (IE they are in the back after all firing at max range ideally). Mounted will always do full attacks on contact.

[dataseer21]

Half to state this somewhere. I don't know if this is new but the unit model for a female aasimar riding a horse is broken. My character is invisible on the horse but the arms are still there. I still do damage though which is good.

[Shahadem]

The most game lore and story important Paladin flavored swords are both one handed long swords.

Just if you want your Paladin to be as immersive as possible.

In Wrath, all the two handed weapon fighting talents are locked behind a fighter subclass.
Which you could cheat and give to your Paladin who should have access to those feats.
I did cheat to add them to mine and don't regret it at all.