Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition

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[SPOILER]Anyone else think the gold dragon is too stupid to be let live?
SPOILER ALERT!
This involves events regarding access to the Dragon Mythic Path. It will give away one of the choices needed unlock that path.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

This is my second palythrough, and I already warned about spoilers, so I'm not going to be picky.

I just reached Terendelev's (say THAT five times fast) layer, where you first encounter Halaseliax the gold dragon. Can I just say, he's too stupid to let live, and killing him should be listed as a "good" act? He shows mercy to unrepentant cultist abyss-bent on destroying the world. If these were cultists that were sincerely repentant of their crimes, their MIGHT be room for leniency, but the cultist cleric he asks you to spare actively threatens you right after the dragon asks you for mercy. Letting him go should qualify as an evil act at that point, and the dragon should earn a death sentence for, if not being evil, being too stupid to let live.

You should really get a dialogue option of:
"(Good) (Kill the cultist) You would have me spare a cultist that just threatened to go back to trying to destroy the world? The only rational choice if you are trying to protect the world is to kill this idiot."

Mercy is ONLY acceptable for the truly repentant. Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent.
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Showing 1-15 of 39 comments
Outpost Omega 5 Jun 29, 2024 @ 4:42pm 
Oh, and comparing me at the start of the game when you are healed by Terendelev is insulting. I didn't threaten my rescuers, and I didn't threaten to attack them the next time I saw them. I wasn't a threat to them or anything they cared about. As far from Terendelev's perspective, I would not have objected to be humanely held until they could verify my story, (I AM a stranger that just showed up on their doorstep, and maybe I am a duplicitous bastard as far as they know at that point in time), but that's just being prudent of the situation.
Glyph Jun 29, 2024 @ 5:45pm 
If there's one thing the game and its source AP hammers into you constantly, it's that everyone deserves a shot at repentance via mercy, no matter who they are. Your ideas of alignment clearly do not correspond with the game's. That's ok, the game has lots of weird ideas about alignment, but you're projecting yours onto the game's.
Shahadem Jun 29, 2024 @ 7:42pm 
Is the gold dragon worse than Ember who does the exact same thing?

There are two different aspects to being good in the Pathfinder games:
1) showing mercy
2) forgiveness
3) divine wrath (although in something like Star Wars this is a path leading one to becoming evil)

Even Iomedae's herald says that the only way to truly defeat evil is to convert people away from worshiping evil gods/demons/devils.

Also the fact that someone threatens you with violence is not that same thing as someone committing violence against you. Someone on the pathway to ideological change will often cling to their previous ideology more strongly before truly changing.

The situation is a lot more nuanced than you are trying to make it be. You don't seem to think that people can change, and then when you see someone who might be on the pathway to change you don't understand what is involved on that journey of change.
Last edited by Shahadem; Jun 29, 2024 @ 7:47pm
Bystander36 Jun 30, 2024 @ 11:48am 
How is he any different than a doctor in real life? They heal everyone regardless of what they've done. It's part of their oath.
Chronocide Jun 30, 2024 @ 12:03pm 
Originally posted by Outpost Omega 5:
Mercy is ONLY acceptable for the truly repentant. Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent.
Yes, but if they die, they can't eventually reach the conclusion that they should repent - killing those that don't immediately repent is shortsighted.

Additionally, the attitude that someone is too stupid to "let live" isn't good, that's evil. Goodness doesn't require other creatures to "earn" their right to live, or you'll murder them.

Goodness prefers creatures go down the good path, but killing those that don't meet your standards is definitely evil behavior (lawful evil, most likely). Goodness has optimism towards the superiority of their alignment and that others will eventually turn to goodness, since it's the best. Being good and succeeding in good acts, should turn others to good.

By contrast, doing evil (such as murdering the helpless), promotes more evil. You can't "snuff out" evil by mass murdering everyone who is evil - just adds more evil to the world. Sure, you'd kill those particular evil people, but in doing so, you are spreading evil and further proving the inferiority of goodness.
Last edited by Chronocide; Jun 30, 2024 @ 12:07pm
reidj062 Jun 30, 2024 @ 12:11pm 
Originally posted by Outpost Omega 5:
SPOILER ALERT!
This involves events regarding access to the Dragon Mythic Path. It will give away one of the choices needed unlock that path.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

This is my second palythrough, and I already warned about spoilers, so I'm not going to be picky.

I just reached Terendelev's (say THAT five times fast) layer, where you first encounter Halaseliax the gold dragon. Can I just say, he's too stupid to let live, and killing him should be listed as a "good" act? He shows mercy to unrepentant cultist abyss-bent on destroying the world. If these were cultists that were sincerely repentant of their crimes, their MIGHT be room for leniency, but the cultist cleric he asks you to spare actively threatens you right after the dragon asks you for mercy. Letting him go should qualify as an evil act at that point, and the dragon should earn a death sentence for, if not being evil, being too stupid to let live.

You should really get a dialogue option of:
"(Good) (Kill the cultist) You would have me spare a cultist that just threatened to go back to trying to destroy the world? The only rational choice if you are trying to protect the world is to kill this idiot."

Mercy is ONLY acceptable for the truly repentant. Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent.

I think the idea is it would be dishonorable to finish him off or something. I will never take the gold dragon path cause everyone rips on it as being underwhelming and Hal's an idiot, for reasons Daeran gives quite clearly.
Outpost Omega 5 Jun 30, 2024 @ 8:27pm 
So I walk into a field hospital. The "patients" immediately attack me (morally forfeiting the protections of the status of "patient"). Note, that prior to the start of the fight, they had green circles under them, marking them as friendlies. In internal game logic, as far as I can tell, that means your characters aren't taking an actively hostile stance against them.

I defend myself against these "friendly" "patients". The doctor shows up and asks I spare the last one standing. AFTER a third party (the doctor) asks for mercy, the sole surviving ass-wipe proves his status as an ass-wipe (and that he is not particularly intelligent) saying he'll kill me the next time he sees me if I let him go (or words very close to that, I don't recall his exact words at this point).

The choice in front of me:
A.) Kill the proven threat here and now, not only saving myself from having to fight him later when he's at full strength, but preventing him from doing more harm between now and then.

B.) Let him go. He attacks me later. I may or may not survive the fight. Even if I do survive the fight, I now have to apologize to the families of everyone he harmed or killed in interim for not finishing him off when I had the chance.

And yes, "Too stupid to live" is a real thing. The cultist in question was too stupid to even pretend he was reformed, or at least just keep his mouth shut.

Is the doctor going to go and treat all the people the cultist harmed because I let the cultist go then? Will he apologize to the surviving family members? Could that harm have been prevented if the cultist hadn't survived the day?

Some of you are saying he might change. I might win the lottery tomorrow. Yes, anything is possible, but you have to practical in the face of here and now, using what you know is, rather than what might be, and everything I know up to the here and now says the guy is unrepentant, not to mention an enemy combatant in a war.

Yes, real world doctors treat everybody, a practice I don't 100% agree with, but as far as I'm aware, doctors still call the police when they know they have a criminal on hand. The police secure the criminal so he can't flee (handcuffed to the hospital bed, for example) and do what they can to reduce the criminal's ability to get up to trouble. Once treated, he is turned over to the police, not just turned loose to create more trouble.

The dragon in the game just let's them walk away to create more victims. Maybe that's not the dragon's intent, but circling back to the my original post's subject line, if the dragon can't come to this realization on his own, then yes he's too stupid to live because he is actively enabling more evil too occur.
Chronocide Jun 30, 2024 @ 9:10pm 
Originally posted by Outpost Omega 5:
So I walk into a field hospital. The "patients" immediately attack me (morally forfeiting the protections of the status of "patient"). Note, that prior to the start of the fight, they had green circles under them, marking them as friendlies. In internal game logic, as far as I can tell, that means your characters aren't taking an actively hostile stance against them.

I defend myself against these "friendly" "patients". The doctor shows up and asks I spare the last one standing. AFTER a third party (the doctor) asks for mercy, the sole surviving ass-wipe proves his status as an ass-wipe (and that he is not particularly intelligent) saying he'll kill me the next time he sees me if I let him go (or words very close to that, I don't recall his exact words at this point).

The choice in front of me:
A.) Kill the proven threat here and now, not only saving myself from having to fight him later when he's at full strength, but preventing him from doing more harm between now and then.

B.) Let him go. He attacks me later. I may or may not survive the fight. Even if I do survive the fight, I now have to apologize to the families of everyone he harmed or killed in interim for not finishing him off when I had the chance.

And yes, "Too stupid to live" is a real thing. The cultist in question was too stupid to even pretend he was reformed, or at least just keep his mouth shut.
Are you entering the field hospital of a friendly faction, or are you the enemy commander of the enemy faction, going into the hospital of the faction you are at war with? If hitler walks into the WW2 allies field hospital, he's definitely there to make trouble, right?

Were they actually threatening you? Like, I don't mean if they were "trying" to hurt you or claiming they would harm you, but did they actually have the capacity to endanger you? A bunch of patients in hospital gowns with nothing more than improvised weapons isn't a threat to a fully armed party of adventurers.

Further, did you enter the "field hospital" with the intention of finding combat, or were you innocently going there and just happened to find hostile people?

Also, did you bring weapons into the field hospital? Were you, perhaps, dripping with the blood of their allies that you fought prior to entering the field hospital?

Real world, you show up at the hospital with guns and a big sword on your back, chances are pretty high someone tries to stop you. And if you fight back, you're still the agressor here.

And again, too stupid too live vs having faith that goodness will prevail...if you abandon your faith and just kill everyone who probably won't repent, that's definitely the path of evil. Doesn't make them good guys, but you might all just be evil together.

At this point, perhaps want to start debating the "circles" of hell, that your character
might be in the "better" circle than those enemy cultists - since it's all shades of evil that you are debating.
Last edited by Chronocide; Jun 30, 2024 @ 9:15pm
Outpost Omega 5 Jun 30, 2024 @ 9:21pm 
Originally posted by Chronocide:
And again, too stupid too live vs having faith that goodness will prevail...if you abandon your faith and just kill everyone who probably won't repent, that's definitely the path of evil. Doesn't make them good guys, but you might all just be evil together.

So you have ten ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ all claiming they will repent. You have no idea who is sincere and who isn't. One of them does, the other nine go on to comment more atrocities in the name of their god or what have you. Does the one who repented out weigh the evil of the nine who didn't? Do the victims agree with that math? Evil is gambling on a 1% chance that good will happen and a 99% chance evil will happen rather than taking the sure fire option that prevents the evil.

I remind you in your own words:

Originally posted by Chronocide:
probably won't repent
Last edited by Outpost Omega 5; Jun 30, 2024 @ 9:31pm
IlluminaZero Jun 30, 2024 @ 9:24pm 
Of all my issues with the Gold Dragon path this is certainly not one of them. <<

Even if you disagree with the Gold Dragon's attempts at trying to reform evil characters that certainly is NOT cause to execute the Gold Dragon for anything even remotely "good" from an alignment perspective.

There is an argument for it being "LAWFUL" but certainly not "GOOD." At "best" that is Lawful Neutral but more likely Lawful Evil.
Chronocide Jun 30, 2024 @ 10:14pm 
Originally posted by Outpost Omega 5:
the sure fire option that prevents the evil.
That right there, that's where your paladin has fallen to evil. The idea that killing your enemy "prevents" evil is innately a lapse in judgement on what is good and what is evil.

It doesn't prevent evil, it ensures it. You just add more evil in addition to their evil. A daemon would be quite satisfied with you, as one evil (that cultist) leads another (yourself) to do evil, a win for evil.

What you are preventing is the possibility that your enemy could turn to good in the future.

Even a mostly evil enemy might save a child from a burning building or some other good act, sometime in the future. You don't know. They might never repent, but they might do good, even once. You've denied that good that which could have happened.

If you are thinking that deliberately doing evil somehow balances the scales if you then do enough good, once again, you have fallen to evil ways of thinking. There's not an "okay" amount of evil that you can do, from a good perspective. You can't murder a bunch of people and then somehow resolve yourself by also helping orphans at the orphanage. That's not a good alignment.

And, yes, nobody is perfect. Even the most evil, are not pure evil, just like the most good are not pure good. But the attitude that accepts doing evil as necessary is not considered a good alignment.
Chronocide Jun 30, 2024 @ 10:16pm 
Originally posted by IlluminaZero:
There is an argument for it being "LAWFUL" but certainly not "GOOD." At "best" that is Lawful Neutral but more likely Lawful Evil.
Lawful or chaotic, depending on the reasoning, but totally agree, this isn't good alignment behavior.
Schlumpsha Jun 30, 2024 @ 11:10pm 
Originally posted by Bystander36:
How is he any different than a doctor in real life? They heal everyone regardless of what they've done. It's part of their oath.
Hal's a unlicensed quack. Gotta leave it to professionals to look after patients. Such as Battlebliss' Arena Healer: a true practitioner of the healing arts, that one!
Outpost Omega 5 Jun 30, 2024 @ 11:12pm 
Okay, so the evil s.o.b. saves 1 child from a burning building. And the three other building fires he sets subsequently are justified by that?

Next time you have a chance to stop evil in real life but don't because he of the THEORETICAL good that might happen later, make sure you go and explain yourself to the victims of everybody hurt because you ignored the very ACTUAL evil of right now.

I'm not talking about knowingly offing sincerely repent individuals. I'm talking about excising proven societal cancer before it has a chance to spread and do (more) irreversible harm. Also, anybody who is truly repent probably only caused the harm by a legitimate accident, never wanted to cause the harm, and therefore isn't a person who needs to die, though reparations might still be appropriate depending on the nature and scale of the harm caused.
IlluminaZero Jun 30, 2024 @ 11:20pm 
I suspect the issue isn't really punishing the criminals but "gold dragon is too stupid to be let live" being almost comically evil.
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Date Posted: Jun 29, 2024 @ 4:35pm
Posts: 39