Smilodon got nerfed?

[Die Dame des Berges]

I used to remember that Smilodon is the best pet in the game, or maybe it was only for Kingmaker? I started a new playthrough, and took nature domain for Sosiel with Smilodon pet, and it barely deals any damage. It can kill human enemies, but when it comes to demons and ghosts, damage is reduced to 0

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

not again X-)
you can trip and attack with every pet and i leave it at this.

But not as a free action.

Deny it all you want, but that is a major advantage. Especially if you play turn based.

[Brother Santodes]

yes as a part of a full attack. have a nice day.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

yes as a part of a full attack. have a nice day.

And? What's wrong with that? Don't you WANT your animal companion to have full attacks?

And it also applies to a standard attack too. I ask again, what's wrong with that?

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Mauman:

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

not again X-)
you can trip and attack with every pet and i leave it at this.

But not as a free action.

Deny it all you want, but that is a major advantage. Especially if you play turn based.

No, @Brother Santodes is correct. He pointed out the feat required for free trip attempts earlier. However, it is a pretty long feat chain to get it and probably not worth it compared to just picking an Animal Companion that gets free trip attempts by default.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why there's a debate. Trip is super good (borderline OP) early and then falls off pretty hard mid to late when a massive amount of things start being immune to trip or have CMDs so high that they might as well be immune.

IMO Smilodon has the highest damage among Animal Companions due to number of attacks with Pounce and you can keep it relevant well into the mid game. Not quite sure how it shakes out late.

Dog appears to be THE best tripper and might surpass Smilodon in damage potential late game due to iterative attacks and 1.5 Str bonus damage but does not get Pounce by default (not to mention smaller attack bonuses on later iterative attacks).

Leopard sort of splits the difference with its three attacks and Pounce with the free trip only on the bite ending up in a worse place than either of them offensively with a slightly better AC and the ability to focus on Dex for damage rather than Str.

Thoughts?

[jonnin]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Mauman:

But not as a free action.

Deny it all you want, but that is a major advantage. Especially if you play turn based.

No, @Brother Santodes is correct. He pointed out the feat required for free trip attempts earlier. However, it is a pretty long feat chain to get it and probably not worth it compared to just picking an Animal Companion that gets free trip attempts by default.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why there's a debate. Trip is super good (borderline OP) early and then falls off pretty hard mid to late when a massive amount of things start being immune to trip or have CMDs so high that they might as well be immune.

IMO Smilodon has the highest damage among Animal Companions due to number of attacks with Pounce and you can keep it relevant well into the mid game. Not quite sure how it shakes out late.

Dog appears to be THE best tripper and might surpass Smilodon in damage potential late game due to iterative attacks and 1.5 Str bonus damage but does not get Pounce by default (not to mention smaller attack bonuses on later iterative attacks).

Leopard sort of splits the difference with its three attacks and Pounce with the free trip only on the bite ending up in a worse place than either of them offensively with a slightly better AC and the ability to focus on Dex for damage rather than Str.

Thoughts?

I think its a significantly better AC, as it doesnt get burned on its size increase with a penalty while gaining even more dex. I don't know the actual amount but its several points difference.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by jonnin:

I think its a significantly better AC, as it doesnt get burned on its size increase with a penalty while gaining even more dex. I don't know the actual amount but its several points difference.

The AC difference is raw Dex bonus -1 due to Size difference. Dog, Smilodon, and Leopard end up at 11, 15 and 19 Dex respectively. That's a difference of 5 to 3 AC exacerbated by one or two more points due to where you will likely spend attribute points as you level. That is a significant but not game breaking difference and can be partially (if not completely) made up for with barding. Though, the barding takes a while to find.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by jonnin:

I think its a significantly better AC, as it doesnt get burned on its size increase with a penalty while gaining even more dex. I don't know the actual amount but its several points difference.

The AC difference is raw Dex bonus -1 due to Size difference. Dog, Smilodon, and Leopard end up at 11, 15 and 19 Dex respectively. That's a difference of 5 to 3 AC exacerbated by one or two more points due to where you will likely spend attribute points as you level. That is a significant but not game breaking difference and can be partially (if not completely) made up for with barding. Though, the barding takes a while to find.

5 AC is 25% chance to hit, its rather significant. Barding is so common in midnight isles and so rare in the main game. Not even going to try to say the cat is better .. we can argue that forever.. so instead, I will just say that mine at level 10 (main campaign, no midnight isles) has 30 dex, which gives it 42 on-paper AC (more with crane style etc) with mage armor. It may or may not be the best dodge tank, but so far its been the best all arounder of all the ones I have tried (which is most of them).

[fox5s]

Originally posted by jonnin:

5 AC is 25% chance to hit, its rather significant. Barding is so common in midnight isles and so rare in the main game. Not even going to try to say the cat is better .. we can argue that forever.. so instead, I will just say that mine at level 10 (main campaign, no midnight isles) has 30 dex, which gives it 42 on-paper AC (more with crane style etc) with mage armor. It may or may not be the best dodge tank, but so far its been the best all arounder of all the ones I have tried (which is most of them).

Right! I always seem to forget about Mage Armor when talking about Animal Companions. That adjusts the time to get good barding for the lower Dex Animal Companions significantly. But at the same time they can also benefit from Mage Armor meaning that the difference stays at that 5 to 3 points for the Dog and Smilodon respectively.

IMO early game is when AC is the most significant. IIRC good barding (IE barding with more than 4 armor) starts showing up in Act 2 with more in Act 3 when you would gain access to the Midnight Isles as well.

[Brother Santodes]

mage armour does barely anything it does not stack with bracer as soon as ýou ahve +4 bracer you don't need mage armour. you can take bracer +9 and a light barding with enhancement plus 5 and get 14 but this already limits your plus dex to 6 AC which is not that powerful anyway because dex armour is not reliable.
5 armour is not 25% you can often only get hit by a 20 anyway because pets have "insane" armour.

what do you even skill on pet's nothing matters it's just a pet. improved critical 20-20 to 19-20 wow...

i literally shared an image where a triceratop pouches and trip at the same time and one where it does a full a attack and only a 1 will not trip the target in question that was on core.
he was not sized up and missing STR and other stuff.

if you think trip is OP get a quarterstaff monk or find out that grease is a thing or keep your dog fine by me. i mean early game dog trip or doing it as a standard action what a loss of dmg by a medium dog with 1-2 attack or only doing 1 unbearable...

did i ever tell you that a triceratops has a 3 x str multiplayer on a full pouch attack and it doesn't matter?

because something can trip doesn't make it the best pet there are tons of ways to get trip while powerful charge and pouch are hard to impossible to get and that doesn't mean a dog is bad either.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

mage armour does barely anything it does not stack with bracer as soon as ýou ahve +4 bracer you don't need mage armour. you can take bracer +9 and a light barding with enhancement plus 5 and get 14 but this already limits your plus dex to 6 AC which is not that powerful anyway because dex armour is not reliable.
5 armour is not 25% you can often only get hit by a 20 anyway because pets have "insane" armour.

what do you even skill on pet's nothing matters it's just a pet. improved critical 20-20 to 19-20 wow...

i literally shared an image where a triceratop pouches and trip at the same time and one where it does a full a attack and only a 1 will not trip the target in question that was on core.
he was not sized up and missing STR and other stuff.

if you think trip is OP get a quarterstaff monk or find out that grease is a thing or keep your dog fine by me. i mean early game dog trip or doing it as a standard action what a loss of dmg by a medium dog with 1-2 attack or only doing 1 unbearable...

did i ever tell you that a triceratops has a 3 x str multiplayer on a full pouch attack and it doesn't matter?

because something can trip doesn't make it the best pet there are tons of ways to get trip while powerful charge and pouch are hard to impossible to get and that doesn't mean a dog is bad either.

Wow... It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how armor stacking works. Unless the game coding screwed up (possible). You are correct that Mage Armor would not stack with Bracers of Armor greater than +5 and only the better would apply.

However, equipping barding does not allow the barding's Enhancement bonus to apply to Bracers of Armor. Therefore, the max 'armor' bonus an Animal Companion can receive is either the +9 from Bracers of Armor (with no max Dex restriction) or +14 (9+5) from Full Barding +5 (with +1 max Dex). (I'm not going to include Armor Focus adding another +1 but that's also possible with Barding.)

We could debate the various progression points when Mage Armor, Bracers of Armor, and Barding become better based on the Animal Companion's Dex. But it is far easier to do that in-game knowing all your options.

Leopard is prob better off with Bracers and pushing Dex as high as they can. Dog prob better off in Full Barding, Smilodon might be better in Scale Barding but could go either way depending on how you want to spend feats.

You are also correct that +5 AC does not always work out to 25% less chance to be hit due to the way the system works. However, it can help you reach the point of only being hit 5% of the time more easily. This is why I specifically said it was significant but not game breaking.

As far as not being able to spend feats for your Animal Companion and therefore it being easy to go for that free Trip attempts feat chain you pointed out earlier? Just no. (And yes, Improved critical IS a big deal. That's literally twice as many critical threats that can trigger Outflank or StM!)

There are a TON of things you can be spending feats on. I can think of so many examples: Outflank, Precise Strike, Back to Back, Weapon Focus Bite and/or Claw, Improved Crit, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Armor Focus, Fury's Fall, Coordinated Maneuvers, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Improved Cleaving Finish, Combat Reflexes, Seize the Moment, Shatter Defenses, Improved Initiative. Barding Proficiencies, and more I'm probably forgetting. And yes, even Pummeling Style (note that this cannot be used with Crane Style) and Pummeling Bully are not bad options either depending on what you want out of your Animal Companion.

It really depends on what you want from your Animal Companion. Damage, trip, main tank, off-tank, extra mounted movement. There are so many options.

Also, please stop trying to type Pounce as 'pouch.' It makes you seem like you don't know what you are talking about.

Also also, I'm technically on both (all?) your sides. I'm just here 'um, actually'-ing incorrect information so please don't take this as an attack.

[Brother Santodes]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Wow... It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how armor stacking works. Unless the game coding screwed up (possible). You are correct that Mage Armor would not stack with Bracers of Armor greater than +5 and only the better would apply.

However, equipping barding does not allow the barding's Enhancement bonus to apply to Bracers of Armor. Therefore, the max 'armor' bonus an Animal Companion can receive is either the +9 from Bracers of Armor (with no max Dex restriction) or +14 (9+5) from Full Barding +5 (with +1 max Dex). (I'm not going to include Armor Focus adding another +1 but that's also possible with Barding.)

i don't make the rules: https://i.postimg.cc/q040ssvX/35-to-40.png and yes it is 35 without the armour.
they are different bonus so it should stack if it is compared to other bonus stacking.
works with haramaki too which has inf dex scaling just 5 "free" armour.

We could debate the various progression points when Mage Armor, Bracers of Armor, and Barding become better based on the Animal Companion's Dex. But it is far easier to do that in-game knowing all your options.

please don't.

As far as not being able to spend feats for your Animal Companion and therefore it being easy to go for that free Trip attempts feat chain you pointed out earlier? Just no. (And yes, Improved critical IS a big deal. That's literally twice as many critical threats that can trigger Outflank or StM!)

it doesn't double the number of crit because you still need to confirm them something that is often just ignored not that you can not work around that too. fine by me still more then enough feats and it is pretty easy to give pets team fight feats without skilling them.

There are a TON of things you can be spending feats on. I can think of so many examples: Outflank, Precise Strike, Back to Back, Weapon Focus Bite and/or Claw, Improved Crit, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Armor Focus, Fury's Fall, Coordinated Maneuvers, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Improved Cleaving Finish, Combat Reflexes, Seize the Moment, Shatter Defenses, Improved Initiative. Barding Proficiencies, and more I'm probably forgetting. And yes, even Pummeling Style (note that this cannot be used with Crane Style) and Pummeling Bully are not bad options either depending on what you want out of your Animal Companion.

trickery pet is the best try it!. the idea that your Centipede (yes i copied the name from the wiki else i would be unable to write that) opens all the doors and chest is just the way too.
using a mobility horse to get up stairs like structure is also very good.
my point is that there are enough feats for a proper build not that you can't use them.

i'm just putting a dog against 4 feats or stuff you couldn't get easily any other way.
and i stay true to 4 feats is nothing compared to getting a skald.

Also, please stop trying to type Pounce as 'pouch.' It makes you seem like you don't know what you are talking about.

well me not good any language me stupid.

Also also, I'm technically on both (all?) your sides. I'm just here 'um, actually'-ing incorrect information so please don't take this as an attack.

you wouldn't believe how little i care. yeah i'm fine pouching around.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

i don't make the rules: https://i.postimg.cc/q040ssvX/35-to-40.png and yes it is 35 without the armour.
they are different bonus so it should stack if it is compared to other bonus stacking.
works with haramaki too which has inf dex scaling just 5 "free" armour.

Ah, so my note about screwed up code was the thing actually happening. Good to know. That is not how it is supposed to work.

If it is broken for normal armor, it makes sense that it would be broken for Haramaki as well. I will note that Haramaki doesn't usually work for Dex tanks because they are usually also stacking Monk bonuses that a Haramaki disables. But it would work for casters or anyone else using Bracers of Armor.

Oh! How old is that screenshot? I thought they fixed most of the stacking issues when Last Sarkorian released.

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

it doesn't double the number of crit because you still need to confirm them something that is often just ignored not that you can not work around that too. fine by me still more then enough feats and it is pretty easy to give pets team fight feats without skilling them.

That would be why I specified that it doubles the critical THREATS. Threats that CAN (but not necessarily WILL) turn into additional Outflank or StM triggers.

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

i'm just putting a dog against 4 feats or stuff you couldn't get easily any other way.
and i stay true to 4 feats is nothing compared to getting a skald.

Valid. Skald giving out Pounce is a solid play.

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

well me not good any language me stupid.

Fair enough, I've been there many times myself. i typ gud, i swer.

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

you wouldn't believe how little i care. yeah i'm fine pouching around.

Valid. Good talk! :D

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

Originally posted by fox5s:

Wow... It seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how armor stacking works. Unless the game coding screwed up (possible). You are correct that Mage Armor would not stack with Bracers of Armor greater than +5 and only the better would apply.

However, equipping barding does not allow the barding's Enhancement bonus to apply to Bracers of Armor. Therefore, the max 'armor' bonus an Animal Companion can receive is either the +9 from Bracers of Armor (with no max Dex restriction) or +14 (9+5) from Full Barding +5 (with +1 max Dex). (I'm not going to include Armor Focus adding another +1 but that's also possible with Barding.)

i don't make the rules: https://i.postimg.cc/q040ssvX/35-to-40.png and yes it is 35 without the armour.
they are different bonus so it should stack if it is compared to other bonus stacking.
works with haramaki too which has inf dex scaling just 5 "free" armour.

Going to disagree with you on this. In the CRB under Armor in the magic section first line read

"In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than nonmagical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1."

Note the "regular armor bonus" line. Bracers of Armor provide a purely magical armor, not regular. Most of the Paizo forums discussions also come to a conclusion opposite of yours. I will grant, it's really sloppy wording.

[Brother Santodes]

i had to make the screen. so 1h now.

[Brother Santodes]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by Brother Santodes:

i don't make the rules: https://i.postimg.cc/q040ssvX/35-to-40.png and yes it is 35 without the armour.
they are different bonus so it should stack if it is compared to other bonus stacking.
works with haramaki too which has inf dex scaling just 5 "free" armour.

Going to disagree with you on this. In the CRB under Armor in the magic section first line read

"In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than nonmagical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1."

Note the "regular armor bonus" line. Bracers of Armor provide a purely magical armor, not regular. Most of the Paizo forums discussions also come to a conclusion opposite of yours. I will grant, it's really sloppy wording.

i don't know the the rules this is based on.
it is marked as armour for bracer in the game so it stacks with the enhancement here but not with the base armour an armour provides.

this is also so easy to try and do that i kind of see it as impossible to miss on the dev side.
if i'm the first person to notice this bug i will be more then shocked.

i just take the game if the bonus doesn't have the same name it usually stacks that's all i based my experience on.

so if i read your comment there shouldn't be an enhancement to AC and the armour would just change to 6 instead of 1 in this case having the same name and so do not stack?