Imp. Snapshot, combat reflexes and thrown wepaons

[Grimmrog_SIG]

so does such a combination work? do they synergize and I can throw attacks of opprtunaty onto casters within threatening range even multiple times a turn?

[pete3great]

You know, I don't recall combat reflexes/snap shot triggering when someone was moving through a square threatened by my archer. BUT, it appears to work in every other way. If Woljif crits, Lann fires away.

[fox5s]

The short answer is yes. Works fine. You can tell it's working with Outflank as per:

Originally posted by pete3great:

You know, I don't recall combat reflexes/snap shot triggering when someone was moving through a square threatened by my archer. BUT, it appears to work in every other way. If Woljif crits, Lann fires away.

The issue your run into here that makes it difficult to tell is that enemies have to run out of your reach to trigger an Attack of Opportunity from movement in WotR. Which is far different from how it works in PnP.

Generally, the NPCs will only trigger an AoO from movement if they did not start adjacent to someone and move in and out of someone else's reach on the way to the target they want to be next to. And an archer's reach with Snap Shot is generally so large that they may end up entering their threatening area but are unlikely to leave it. Or are just not in a position to take advantage of their threatened area in the first place since you need to do so little moving to get a full attack.

[Grimmrog_SIG]

Originally posted by fox5s:

The short answer is yes. Works fine. You can tell it's working with Outflank as per:

Originally posted by pete3great:

You know, I don't recall combat reflexes/snap shot triggering when someone was moving through a square threatened by my archer. BUT, it appears to work in every other way. If Woljif crits, Lann fires away.

The issue your run into here that makes it difficult to tell is that enemies have to run out of your reach to trigger an Attack of Opportunity from movement in WotR. Which is far different from how it works in PnP.

Generally, the NPCs will only trigger an AoO from movement if they did not start adjacent to someone and move in and out of someone else's reach on the way to the target they want to be next to. And an archer's reach with Snap Shot is generally so large that they may end up entering their threatening area but are unlikely to leave it. Or are just not in a position to take advantage of their threatened area in the first place since you need to do so little moving to get a full attack.

ah ok, so they need to also exit this area. but what about attacks of opportunaty vs mages and ranged ones casting/shooting, will snap shot trigger on this too?
or does "threaten" someone for AoO not apply to mage spells and archers? if not what exact condition causes AoO against mages/archers.

also, if I have a archer threatening an area does that mean even if 20 foot away my melee will be flanking the enemy when attacking it in my archers threaten area so far away?

basically, the meain idea or question is, can my thorwng axe dwarf make AoO at casters and ranged opponents qhen having these two feats when these opponents are in the threatening area? or will enemies later have feats preventing this anyways?

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Grimmrog_SIG:

ah ok, so they need to also exit this area. but what about attacks of opportunaty vs mages and ranged ones casting/shooting, will snap shot trigger on this too?
or does "threaten" someone for AoO not apply to mage spells and archers? if not what exact condition causes AoO against mages/archers.

also, if I have a archer threatening an area does that mean even if 20 foot away my melee will be flanking the enemy when attacking it in my archers threaten area so far away?

basically, the meain idea or question is, can my thorwng axe dwarf make AoO at casters and ranged opponents qhen having these two feats when these opponents are in the threatening area? or will enemies later have feats preventing this anyways?

Short answer is yes. You won't see this all the time because casters automatically make a hidden Concentration check (casting defensively) that they have to fail to provoke the AoO.

You generally won't notice it with archers because your archer has to move close enough for their ranged reach to threaten the other archers and that will probably prevent you from making a full attack (it's usually just more efficient to drill them with arrows and only make a 5-foot-step closer). Also, many, but not all, archers will switch to a melee weapon when they are threatened. And a few archers might have the ability to make ranged attacks without provoking in the first place (Lann gets this at level 3).

As far as flanking, I'm not sure an archer with Snap Shot counts for the purposes of flanking. I'd have to test that one. I can say that as long as the enemy is flanked, an archer can trigger things that require flanking depending on the wording of the ability.

For example, if my archer has Outflank and crits, the people in melee get an AoO (assuming there are at least two there with Outflank providing flanking). I am fairly certain that Snap Shot would allow the archer to get the AoO as per @pete3great's example, assuming they are within the 20 feet, but they definitely won't without Snap Shot.

I hope this helps!

[Elizabello]

1. You cant flank with ranged
2. Outflank doesnt let your ranged chars make AoO from your melee chars critting. Your melees will make AoO from your ranged crits though
3. If you want your ranged chars to make AoO from melees crit - you need Seize the Moment and the enemy needs to be in the threat distance

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

1. You cant flank with ranged
2. Outflank doesnt let your ranged chars make AoO from your melee chars critting. Your melees will make AoO from your ranged crits though
3. If you want your ranged chars to make AoO from melees crit - you need Seize the Moment and the enemy needs to be in the threat distance

1 - Just clarifying, we are talking about a ranged character with Snap Shot and whatever the thing is that allows them 'threaten' as though they were a melee character at 20 ft. We are unsure how this interacts with Flanking.
2 - Normally you would be completely correct. Though, we are unsure about the Snap Shot interaction. @pete3great seems to be indicating otherwise.
3 - Again, normally you would be completely correct. I was having trouble remembering the name of Seize the Moment or I'd have mentioned it earlier as well.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Elizabello:

1. You cant flank with ranged
2. Outflank doesnt let your ranged chars make AoO from your melee chars critting. Your melees will make AoO from your ranged crits though
3. If you want your ranged chars to make AoO from melees crit - you need Seize the Moment and the enemy needs to be in the threat distance

1 - Just clarifying, we are talking about a ranged character with Snap Shot and whatever the thing is that allows them 'threaten' as though they were a melee character at 20 ft. We are unsure how this interacts with Flanking.
2 - Normally you would be completely correct. Though, we are unsure about the Snap Shot interaction. @pete3great seems to be indicating otherwise.
3 - Again, normally you would be completely correct. I was having trouble remembering the name of Seize the Moment or I'd have mentioned it earlier as well.

Oook disregard what i said. I tested this extensively about 2 years ago. went and checked again and this is not how it works in the game right now. Will update later.

Ok ranged definetely can do AoO from melee chars crits from outflank now as long as they are in threaten range. Ranged AoO also trigger from enemies moving through threat range from snap shot.

[Rizilliant]

I have tried to build both Lann and Wnduag with it, and it almost never procs.. Considering how rarely enemy AI in melee provoke AoO, seeing it happen with ranged characters is even less.. It happens, but not often enough to waste the feats on. I used Lann with Longbow, and Wenduag with dual throwing axes.. Later levels, most enemy archers have the feat to ignore provoking AoO

[Grimmrog_SIG]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Grimmrog_SIG:

ah ok, so they need to also exit this area. but what about attacks of opportunaty vs mages and ranged ones casting/shooting, will snap shot trigger on this too?
or does "threaten" someone for AoO not apply to mage spells and archers? if not what exact condition causes AoO against mages/archers.

also, if I have a archer threatening an area does that mean even if 20 foot away my melee will be flanking the enemy when attacking it in my archers threaten area so far away?

basically, the meain idea or question is, can my thorwng axe dwarf make AoO at casters and ranged opponents qhen having these two feats when these opponents are in the threatening area? or will enemies later have feats preventing this anyways?

Short answer is yes. You won't see this all the time because casters automatically make a hidden Concentration check (casting defensively) that they have to fail to provoke the AoO.

You generally won't notice it with archers because your archer has to move close enough for their ranged reach to threaten the other archers and that will probably prevent you from making a full attack (it's usually just more efficient to drill them with arrows and only make a 5-foot-step closer). Also, many, but not all, archers will switch to a melee weapon when they are threatened. And a few archers might have the ability to make ranged attacks without provoking in the first place (Lann gets this at level 3).

As far as flanking, I'm not sure an archer with Snap Shot counts for the purposes of flanking. I'd have to test that one. I can say that as long as the enemy is flanked, an archer can trigger things that require flanking depending on the wording of the ability.

For example, if my archer has Outflank and crits, the people in melee get an AoO (assuming there are at least two there with Outflank providing flanking). I am fairly certain that Snap Shot would allow the archer to get the AoO as per @pete3great's example, assuming they are within the 20 feet, but they definitely won't without Snap Shot.

I hope this helps!

thx it does,

and adds more questions together with Elizabellos comments.

I am really lost in how terminologies connect,

because

Seize the Moment (Teamwork)
Edit

You and your allies are poised to pounce whenever one of you scores a telling blow.

Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes

Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat confirms a critical hit against an opponent that you also threaten, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.

[quote/]

Combat Reflexes (Combat)
Edit

You can make additional attacks of opportunity.

Prerequisite: None

Benefits: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Without this feat: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
[/qute]

Flanking
Edit

A creature is considered flanked if it is threatened (characters threaten all areas they can make melee attacks into - usually around a five-foot radius area around them) by two opponents. Flanking attackers gain a +2 flanking bonus to Attack Rolls against flanked defenders. Flanked defenders are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks.

the point is if I connect that terminology with
snap shot + imp. + greater snap shot

Snap Shot

snap shot feats pathfinder wotr wiki guide 64px

While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten squares within your melee reach. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.

You threaten an additional 5 feet with Snap Shot

You threaten an additional 5 feet with Snap Shot. Additionally, whenever you make an Attack of Opportunity using a ranged weapon and hit, you gain a +2 bonus on the damage roll and a +2 bonus on rolls to confirm a critical hit with that attack. These bonuses increase to +4 when you have base attack bonus +16, and to +6 when you have base attack bonus +20.

[/quote]

if I try to connect this logically,

snap shot adds threaten to my ranged weapons which is melee +10m range.

threatening someone means I can outflank them with another character thats within my snap shoting character. right? because thats howflanking is defined. beign threatened. as the definition does not state how or by what it is threatened (no limited to melee weapons)

so imagine I have two (three) throwing weapons characters,
they all have:

snap shot, improved snap shot, greater snap shot.
combat reflexes
outflank
additionally: seize the moment.

wouldn't that mean, if I cover a single opponent with all characters in their ranged threathening area (due to outflank). I could crit this enemy and make the other allies also make an AoO at him. additionally, would seize the moment stack that? does oen crit now cause 2 AoO to happen on that enemy, because Combat reflexes allows multiple AoO based on my dex bonus.

in extreme case, If I have all 6 characters with this set of feats, and ranged weapons, and I can apply the threat area around one opponent, would It cause 6 or even 12 AoO should an attack crit?

even furter in the madness of trigegrs, would an AoO that crits trigger further AoO ?

Like char 1 crits, now char 2,3,4,5,6 get their AoO. now char 5 also crits with his AoO. would he trigegr Char 1,2,3,4,6 to trigger an AoO again?

I see no descriptions in the feats, or what flanking is defined as not makign this happen, but it sounds so oer the top of how often what triggers. I just am not long enough in the game to even test this as I have nowhere enough evels to do so. But I wonder would it work?

[fox5s]

You are asking complicated questions. But, I can answer them. First, only each character can only get one Attack of Opportunity per provoking action. This means that if a character has Outflank and Seize the Moment, even though a particular crit would trigger both, each other character would only get one AoO. Now, if that AoO crits, it can theoretically set off a new set of AoOs but that is separate. In practice, the thing is usually already dead from the first set but that really depends on the monster. So yes, a chain of attacks is possible with Combat Reflexes and luck (or Trickster cheating).

Usually, it is redundant to have StM and Outflank but StM is easier to trigger since it does not require flanking (remember you will run into a lot of things that cannot be flanked due to Improved Uncanny Dodge) but has more prereqs for the feat itself. Though, Outflank doubling the flanking bonus is nice as well. Tradeoffs.

I think the reason archers generally cannot take advantage of Outflank is because they are usually too far away to be 'threatening' and therefore flanking. But them having Outflank allows the actually flanking characters to take advantage of the archer's crits. This is causing me to think that even with increased threatening area from Snapshot that archers cannot flank. I have not tested this in forever so am unsure. However, StM works for sure with Snapshot because it does not require flanking, just threatened area.

It's kind of great having Outflank on your entire front line and an archer. I have used it and it works amazingly. Don't bother getting it with Ember, Daeran, or Nenio. If you can fit it on Sosiel, great but you might have him doing other things and IIRC he is a bit feat starved.

Please ask if you have any specific questions. The only thing I'm unclear on is whether archers can flank via Snapshot. But i know what would happen if the answer is yes or if the answer is no.

EDIT: Oh! One thing I missed clarifying. An archer with Outflank critting can set off melee attacks from flanking characters (who have Outflank) regardless of range and Snapshot. The wording of Outflank is a bit weird but allows it to work.

[Elizabello]

You cant flank with ranged even with snapshot. Snapshot doesnt let ranged flank for outflank either. For outflank to work for ranged - the target needs to be flanked(by other chars then the ranged one), after that for ranged to proc AoO that character needs to threaten it. Threatening isnt flanking though.
Basically in Outflanks case the free attack on an allys crit only applies if you're flanking the same enemy, whereas in Sieze the Moment you only need to threaten them.

I hate the wording of these skills.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

For outflank to work for ranged - the target needs to be flanked(by other chars then the ranged one), after that for ranged to proc AoO that character needs to threaten it.

The initial point of this statement is correct. I may not have been clear on that point.

The final part about the ranged character also needing to threaten them is not correct (or your statement is unclear and you are not talking about the ranged character there). Outflank doesn't care about range or threatening status of the character that crits. I have set off Outflank attacks with Arue even when she didn't have Snapshot.

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Elizabello:

For outflank to work for ranged - the target needs to be flanked(by other chars then the ranged one), after that for ranged to proc AoO that character needs to threaten it.

The initial point of this statement is correct. I may not have been clear on that point.

The final part about the ranged character also needing to threaten them is not correct (or your statement is unclear and you are not talking about the ranged character there). Outflank doesn't care about range or threatening status of the character that crits. I have set off Outflank attacks with Arue even when she didn't have Snapshot.

You have made your melee characters do AoO from Arus crits with Outflank. You havent made Aru do AoO with her ranged weapon from melee characters crits. For her to do those she needs to threaten the target.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

You have made your melee characters do AoO from Arus crits with Outflank. You havent made Aru do AoO with her ranged weapon from melee characters crits. For her to do those she needs to threaten the target.

Correct. Sorry if i was misunderstanding what you meant.

[Star Sage]

You can also do a Hunter(Tandem Executioner) build that causes you and your animal companion to get AoO from every crit. If you're riding on them and use some ability to cause them to crit every round/attack(There's a belt that makes it always happen, and a few abilities to help there), you can turn your lead especially into a blender. Duel wielding, two bite attacks, plus 7 attacks from a properly equipped Smiledon, and then multiply that for every crit by X2. Add in Snapshot and stuff and you'll kill even the super bosses in one round.