The current mechanism, Ember and Nenio?

[渺羽 (Nihilmace)]

Because someone necro'd this thread.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/5086242673975476639/?ctp=9

Makes me interested in this, and I'm curious about what the players here think, especially seeing as there's a lot of discussion about that thread.
Though both seem like good spellcasters to me, But If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Nenio, But I'd like to see people's opinions.

Ember has no "Magic Weapon, Greater", no "Sirocco", no "Invisibility, Mass", no "Weird".
She can't protect the party with "mind blanks" + Illusion spells, she can't get the rest of the party an Echolocation by scribe scroll.

I know she can "Winter's Graps" now, but Winter's Graps can't affect flying demons.
Her "Slumber" is immune to a lot of enemies later in the game, or her hex has trouble getting past the Saving throw.

She can "protect luck", protecting luck is quite a powerful force indeed,
But she can only protect one target at a time, and can't do anything else if she has to repeat the operation.
She can do damage, I know, but so can the rest of my party, and the "touch attack" doesn't have to be done by her, the rest of the party can do it, and the rest of the party can do it too.
About "Touch Attack", Nenio can also "Battering Blast", Besides, Nenio has pearls now.

What do you all think? Sorry for my bad English, but I was really curious about everyone's opinion here.

[Cursed Life]

You can take both, anyway Emebr witch stuff is very op and you can spam them all the way.

[Steffan]

I work better with Ember. She fits me more as a personality. THat being said, Nenio can be a devastating caster if used correctly.

[splaniden]

I like Ember. Spontaneous caster. Sleep. Anguish. That save or die death hex. She trivialized those Mythic Crystals and golems. AC/Attack/Save debuffing. Equip her with all if the ray casting gear. Run out of spell uses of Death Ward? Upgrade it to a new spell level on the fly.

And you can use Protective Luck on more than one companion...just not on the caster

[Azure]

Ember with a Merc Arcanist to fill the Arcane needs i want from a Arcane caster without the baggage nenio brings

[revan1229]

Nenio, imo. I consider Nenio an S-tier companion, and Ember an A-tier companion. They are both strong, though. You can also easily take both, since both are flexible enough to fulfill different roles.

Ember has hexes, which are nice. PL is particularly good, as is Fortune. Here, though, I prefer Camellia, because Camellia has access to hexes with no save and that aren't mind-affecting. I was never that impressed with Slumber in the early game because of Grease/Winter's Grasp. Ember gets the latter, but she is spontaneous, meaning her Selective WG takes a full-round to cast. This is another reason I prefer Camellia early. Most people seem to use her for rays, but I'd take Nenio or Daeran (or even Camellia) over her for that role. She makes a great Enchanter or Stinking Cloud bot, though.

Nenio has a meh specialist school (Illusion spells are strong, but the school powers are not), but Scroll Savant is strong in this game with the number of scrolls you can buy, pick up, and craft. There are items, like Librarian's Cloak (boost CL by 4 when casting from scrolls), that make it even better. Nenio also can go into LM, Geomancer dip, etc. easily, whereas doing so with Ember, hurts her hexes. The Wizard spell book is also superior to the Witch's (while progressing faster). Ember can pad hers out somewhat with gear, but it doesn't make up the difference. Lastly, if you don't take Demongraft for some reason, Nenio can.

[Outlaw]

Ember can take any spell with Loremaster multiclass. Spaming cackle you can buff all your party with Protective Luck and Fortune before fight.

[hilburnashua]

Nice thing about Evil Eye is unless they are immune to mind effecting (which a fair amount are) even if they succeed in the save, they are still effected for 1 round. Which you can then extend with Cackle.

I generally prefer Nenio as a group buffer and Ember as an offensive caster. But both can do either job decently if built correctly.

[渺羽 (Nihilmace)]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Nice thing about Evil Eye is unless they are immune to mind effecting (which a fair amount are) even if they succeed in the save, they are still effected for 1 round. Which you can then extend with Cackle.

I generally prefer Nenio as a group buffer and Ember as an offensive caster. But both can do either job decently if built correctly.

I do the same thing with. Ember definitely is a powerful offensive caster.

The reason Ember makes me use it less often is because there are other people in my party who can do damage as well. And those who do tend to be more consistent in dealing damage.

It also makes me wonder if I should take her. If I want to compensate for Ember's weaknesses, I often give her loremaster levels, but this sacrifices her hexes DC, so I'm in a bit of a dilemma.

[FunkyMonkey]

I find that I always have Nenio in my party but when I know there is some really difficult fights ahead, I bring Ember. So, I use both. Ember's hexes are absolute game-changers, and no spell that Nenio has can compare to what Ember can do in terms of protecting the party basically resource free. Only reason I don't bring them both all the time is it would make the game too easy and micromanaging hexes with cackle can get a little tedious.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

If i have to pick between miss i can convince demons to be good because i am a walking plot device or i have the same class as you but with worse stats?
I take ember everytime because i play wizard.
If i didnt play wizard?

That would be harder.
You see wizards are the best class and anyone who disagree's is factualy wrong.

But nenio like all companions is poorly optimized, Uses illusion which while not bad isnt as good as evocation or conjuration or universalist.

Ultimatily due to the nature of this being a crpg ember hex's are more usefull early game.
Where nenio even with her poor stats can be made a instand kill via phantasm phantom build.
Wizards are late game gods.
Keyword: Late.
Ember hexes are usefull for most of the game.
The ability to turn enemies into a harmless dog at will is overpowered.
But being a poorly stated witch getting her spell dc high enough is extreemly difficulty.
Wizards have many tricks to increase there spell dc, can use several metamagic feat to make spells even more powerful.

In my games i never bring either of them with me once i leave kanabress.
Because i am a better wizard then nenio and between sheela(Selfhealing tank) solas(Healer that wears heavy armor) Regil(Badasss melee wrecking ball) Aruseal skill with a bow.
Lets just say you only need 1 arcane and 1 divine caster.
The rest should be melee/range fighters.
This is because of the nature of the game.
Sure 6 fireballs(one per character) sound great.
But require's so many long rests that you cannot fight the endless horders of the abyss.
A single haste spell cast on my party = dead demons.
So why cast 3 fireballs when i can get the same result just hasting regill and sheela?
Warriors dont tire out fighting thousends of demons.
But spellslots are a valueable commedty and to be used sparingly.

To put it simply:
You dont need anything else then melee units to slaughter everything in this game.
But a caster only run?
That is a self imposed challange.
Double so if you only use arcane casters or worse.
A wizard only party.
Sure there late game gods.
But you will not reach late game without meatsheilds.

[ChompyRiley]

only the crystals and undead and maybe a few constructs are immune. That and any elves you come across. Give her the amulet, the staff, some feats, and slumber/enchantment can carry you. Fortune and Luck you can extend with a move action too. Also spontaneous is much better than prep caster in this game. There's really nothing in terms of 'Utility' casting. Nenio's fine in terms of mechanics, but the major strikes against her are the fact that she's a prep caster, and more enemies resist her best spells because tons of enemies have true seeing in this game. She's got less endurance, less offense. Ember's a crazy potent necromancy/enchantment caster, and her hexes are game changers to the point where it's almost inconceivable to go into some of the more difficult fights without them.

[jonnin]

hexs seem wasteful, due to single target. Everyone likes to go on about spamming cackle to prolong debuffs, but this is like combat round 5 where you finally applied your curses to 4 enemy and now have to maintain it. The wizard will have 85% or more of the fights in the game won on turn 1-2 with CC like the various pit trap spells. The hexes MAY be better on specific fights or a few bosses, but the wizard consistently delivers on all the trash AND does just fine on the bosses too. Maybe this is a difficulty thing, as I am not playing on unfair and actually play on slightly toned down core rules. On unfair, I suspect every fight is more like a boss.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

only the crystals and undead and maybe a few constructs are immune. That and any elves you come across. Give her the amulet, the staff, some feats, and slumber/enchantment can carry you. Fortune and Luck you can extend with a move action too. Also spontaneous is much better than prep caster in this game. There's really nothing in terms of 'Utility' casting. Nenio's fine in terms of mechanics, but the major strikes against her are the fact that she's a prep caster, and more enemies resist her best spells because tons of enemies have true seeing in this game. She's got less endurance, less offense. Ember's a crazy potent necromancy/enchantment caster, and her hexes are game changers to the point where it's almost inconceivable to go into some of the more difficult fights without them.

How is Slumber carrying? It's a single target CC that you cannot use again on the same target if it fails... Early game, Grease/Winter's Grasp/Stinking Cloud are better for her and Nenio. Mid and late game, it's not easy to land, as boosting hex DC is not as easy as boosting spell DC.

Spontaneous is not better than prep caster. It comes down to personal choice, but Nenio progresses faster (and can dip without falling behind Ember), doesn't take a full round to cast spells boosted with MM, and has access to Pearls of Power. Then on top of that, she's a Scroll Savant, so she's only limited by how many scrolls you have. Tons of enemies don't resist her spells, because Nenio does not have to slot only one type of spell... I don't know why people think Nenio only uses Illusion spells.

Nenio does not have less offense? Not sure exactly what you mean by that. And Nenio is far sturdier than Ember due to Wizard buffs.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by 渺羽 (Nihilmace):

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Nice thing about Evil Eye is unless they are immune to mind effecting (which a fair amount are) even if they succeed in the save, they are still effected for 1 round. Which you can then extend with Cackle.

I generally prefer Nenio as a group buffer and Ember as an offensive caster. But both can do either job decently if built correctly.

I do the same thing with. Ember definitely is a powerful offensive caster.

The reason Ember makes me use it less often is because there are other people in my party who can do damage as well. And those who do tend to be more consistent in dealing damage.

It also makes me wonder if I should take her. If I want to compensate for Ember's weaknesses, I often give her loremaster levels, but this sacrifices her hexes DC, so I'm in a bit of a dilemma.

Ember does not have to be DPS. I personally think other party members are better suited for that. You can make her an Enchantment caster quite easily, and she's an elf, so she can get an extra +1 DC to her Enchantment spells.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by revan1229:

How is Slumber carrying? It's a single target CC that you cannot use again on the same target if it fails... Early game, Grease/Winter's Grasp/Stinking Cloud are better for her and Nenio.

Early on a Crowd control that doesnt cost spellslots allows you to use it more.
A common mistake people make when argueing for spells is that they forget that long rest spamm isnt something a lot of people enjoy doing.
And in case of kanabress there are several allies you need to get before the defendse mission.
Going: Wolffjif story> Thieflings in the market place, Show holy blade to hurun and getting him to back off from attacking raiman> go to the libery and safe the knights.
Must all be done in 2 to 4 days(Not sure)
So early on not having a spellslot limit helps.
I pretty much perfected this too a thea and can get it done in under 2 days.
Minimal long rest.
Now if you do long rest spamm then yes prepared caster is better.
Because they can change spells on the fly.
If you however try to be realistic and only sleep once per day instead of once per fight.
Nenio stop being usefull after 1 or 2 fight with how little spellslots she has.

Originally posted by revan1229:

Spontaneous is not better than prep caster. It comes down to personal choice, but Nenio progresses faster (and can dip without falling behind Ember), doesn't take a full round to cast spells boosted with MM, and has access to Pearls of Power. Then on top of that, she's a Scroll Savant, so she's only limited by how many scrolls you have. Tons of enemies don't resist her spells, because Nenio does not have to slot only one type of spell... I don't know why people think Nenio only uses Illusion spells.

Nenio does not have less offense? Not sure exactly what you mean by that. And Nenio is far sturdier than Ember due to Wizard buffs.

True nenio is better late game.
Just as ember is early game.
Same reason why sorcerors are better early game but worse late game.
Wizard are late bloomers.

As for why only illusion spells.
I think because she start as illusionist most players will focus on her being stronger at illusion spells.
It isnt that she cannot learn or cast other spells.
It is that she is best when turned into a suffer or die illusion caster.