This game....

[Chupa666cabrA]

....is much longer than it should be, I stopped playing it after roughly 70 hrs. Picked it up again after several months and it just refuses to show me the final credits. Some mechanics become unbearable after 100+ hrs of playing.

Trying to finish Enigma at the moment. Hours upon hours of wandering around, solving the puzzles only to find out that I don't have enough binding sources to open the central portal.

Less would have been definitely more in this case.

[THAC0]

I mean some games when you try to complete 100% takes thousends of hours must be new to gaming.

[pete3great]

An extremely long rpg is what most of us wanted. This might not be the genre for you.

[Chupa666cabrA]

Don't get me wrong: I like the game and I also like long games in general. What I'm not a fan of are games that are unnecessarily stretched and get worse in the process. I recognize some of that in Pathfinder WOTR. Some parts would have been much more enjoyable had they been shorter, more focused. Like for instance the Abyss. All very nice but a nightmare to navigate. Cool idea for a while but not for hour upon hour. Same with the crusade mode or the travel system in general. Klick, move a few centimeters, klick a few times to rest, two lines of dialogue, random attack, rince and repeat. All nice and good... but not after 100+ hrs.

[Vertigo]

I think an important designation needs to be given. A game that is long because of story content, sidequests, and minigames is not bad.

If a game is long because of things that pad it (tons of trash mobs, an overly lengthy crusade mode, and filler) is a problem.

I think Wrath has a mix of both.

[mbradtke]

the game is long, kingmaker already was long, just live with it, could it be shorter? sure, does it have to? no, will it be? no... because it is finished already

[Deo]

I don't see a problem with this game being long. Crusade is boring and dragging, sure - but you solve that with 1 mod. The game then feels and plays with the right pace.
You just stumbled upon a puzzle you cannot solve, so google solution and move on.

I'd say the game would feel less exhausting overall, with all dialogue and narrative lines being voiced up. WoTR has MANY lines of text.
Currently playing Pillars 2 and it feels SO good when almost every line is voiced.

AI nowadays can read text with different voices and intonations - sometimes you cannot even tell outright if it's an AI talking. So why not use it? Will it take time and effort? Sure. Will it cost the developer as much as hiring whole voiceover crew? Hardly doubt it.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Vertigo:

I think an important designation needs to be given. A game that is long because of story content, sidequests, and minigames is not bad.

If a game is long because of things that pad it (tons of trash mobs, an overly lengthy crusade mode, and filler) is a problem.

I think Wrath has a mix of both.

I stopped playing Kingmaker because of the whole kingdom management drearyness and in this game, while the crusade isn't as bad, it still sucks. It really does suck. The entire map sucks. Takes forever to get anywhere and you have to build an army to move units around and beat enemy armies to get somewhere new. I understand it's part of the game design, but it's not fun at all. It just takes forever even on Story difficulty. At some point I'll probably play on auto mode and add any missed items to my inventory through toybox or something.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Deo:

I don't see a problem with this game being long. Crusade is boring and dragging, sure - but you solve that with 1 mod. The game then feels and plays with the right pace.
You just stumbled upon a puzzle you cannot solve, so google solution and move on.

I'd say the game would feel less exhausting overall, with all dialogue and narrative lines being voiced up. WoTR has MANY lines of text.
Currently playing Pillars 2 and it feels SO good when almost every line is voiced.

AI nowadays can read text with different voices and intonations - sometimes you cannot even tell outright if it's an AI talking. So why not use it? Will it take time and effort? Sure. Will it cost the developer as much as hiring whole voiceover crew? Hardly doubt it.

Can't get myself to play that game again. I've tried. I completed it 3 times, but the sailing around the map thing is just awful game design. Pillars 1 did it right. You move with a party from zone to zone, just like Baldurs Gate did it. That's how it should be. Not with an overworld map walking around taking forever to get anywhere. It sucks. It also sucks in WotR. It's boring and tedious.

[Chupa666cabrA]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Vertigo:

I think an important designation needs to be given. A game that is long because of story content, sidequests, and minigames is not bad.

If a game is long because of things that pad it (tons of trash mobs, an overly lengthy crusade mode, and filler) is a problem.

I think Wrath has a mix of both.

I stopped playing Kingmaker because of the whole kingdom management drearyness and in this game, while the crusade isn't as bad, it still sucks. It really does suck. The entire map sucks. Takes forever to get anywhere and you have to build an army to move units around and beat enemy armies to get somewhere new. I understand it's part of the game design, but it's not fun at all. It just takes forever even on Story difficulty. At some point I'll probably play on auto mode and add any missed items to my inventory through toybox or something.

My thoughts exactly. I never finished Kingmaker because to this day I don't understand what the game wants me to do. WOTR seemed to go down the same route as soon as the crusade kicked in - but at least I grasped the basic idea there. Although it's not bad there's just too much of it. Build - recruit - move around. When I have 500 soldiers the enemy shows up with 1000 demons, when I get to 700 the enemy has 1500 - rince/repeat. The randomnes doesn't help either. Sometimes one enemy troop kills half of my army with one spell or with one teleport/aoe attack. Sometimes I take down armies that should be much stronger than mine in a couple of turns. Not interesting in the long run.

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Razer:

I stopped playing Kingmaker because of the whole kingdom management drearyness and in this game, while the crusade isn't as bad, it still sucks. It really does suck. The entire map sucks. Takes forever to get anywhere and you have to build an army to move units around and beat enemy armies to get somewhere new. I understand it's part of the game design, but it's not fun at all. It just takes forever even on Story difficulty. At some point I'll probably play on auto mode and add any missed items to my inventory through toybox or something.

Yeah, I will agree there. I enjoyed it at first because I love HoMM3, but the problem is the map never changes. On subsequent runs, it becomes a time slog even when set to easy.

Also, I hate to say this: if a game needs a mod to remove a significant portion of gameplay, there are some design issues that should have been worked out long ago.

[Chupa666cabrA]

Originally posted by Razer:

Originally posted by Deo:

I don't see a problem with this game being long. Crusade is boring and dragging, sure - but you solve that with 1 mod. The game then feels and plays with the right pace.
You just stumbled upon a puzzle you cannot solve, so google solution and move on.

I'd say the game would feel less exhausting overall, with all dialogue and narrative lines being voiced up. WoTR has MANY lines of text.
Currently playing Pillars 2 and it feels SO good when almost every line is voiced.

AI nowadays can read text with different voices and intonations - sometimes you cannot even tell outright if it's an AI talking. So why not use it? Will it take time and effort? Sure. Will it cost the developer as much as hiring whole voiceover crew? Hardly doubt it.

Can't get myself to play that game again. I've tried. I completed it 3 times, but the sailing around the map thing is just awful game design. Pillars 1 did it right. You move with a party from zone to zone, just like Baldurs Gate did it. That's how it should be. Not with an overworld map walking around taking forever to get anywhere. It sucks. It also sucks in WotR. It's boring and tedious.

I agree with both. Having voiced dialogue helps a lot. After so many hours (180 ?) I just don't feel like chatting endlessly with every demon I encounter. So I tend to klick everything away as fast as possible. Hadn't though about AI in this context. Finally one application that WOULD make sense to me.

100% agree about PoE 1: great game. And one of the few games where the DLCs were spot on and told an amazing story.

[Chupa666cabrA]

Btw. has anyone played Rogue Trader and does it suffer from the same problems? I've seen it has a ship battle mechanic. Supposedly the equivalent of crusade mode....

[Realm Walker]

Pathfinder WOTR is about the world, story and characters. It is especially about enjoying being a fantasy world adventurer gifted with abilities and powers, be they mythic or not. Besides, what is the point of a game? To play it, not to finish it. Because if you only want to finish a game, especially a singleplayer roleplaying game, why start it the first place?

[Vertigo]

Originally posted by Realm Walker:

Pathfinder WOTR is about the world, story and characters. It is especially about enjoying being a fantasy world adventurer gifted with abilities and powers, be they mythic or not. Besides, what is the point of a game? To play it, not to finish it. Because if you only want to finish a game, especially a singleplayer roleplaying game, why start it the first place?

But that completely ignores the fact the game has its share of filler. We have an overabundance of trash mobs, slow overworld travel, an crusade mode that that is a timesink (even on easier modes), Many of the puzzles in this game (especially those involving Nenio) venture into "good luck doing this without a guide" territory. Your point would work if Wrath was all content with no filler.

Through the Ashes and Lord of Nothing are examples of how fast the story progresses when you do not have to dedicate time and resources to things like crusade mode.

While it is nowhere near as bad as KM, Wrath does create its share of padding.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Chupa666cabrA:

....is much longer than it should be, I stopped playing it after roughly 70 hrs.

Yeah, totally agree. But the length of this game is what keeps bringing me back to it...