Wizard attribute question.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Lets take core as the difficulty of choice.

My useall build is 18 dex, 19 int and 10 in everything else.
Would it be worth it go get 16 dex and u strenght for 20 int?

Edit: Through the ashes playthrought and gets transfer order into lord of nothing.

[Soul]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Originally posted by Soul:

I think your thinking it in terms of sorcerer replacing a wizard..... thats not whats being said.... just cause they are similar being arcane classes they are still apples and oranges...

I agree with Chompy about sorcerers.... their like the energizing bunny.... just keep going and going and going....

when I play with my main as a sorcerer I still party with Nenio to cover other areas my isnt....

but thanks to way sorcerers are built they dont really need to learn a lot of spells.... they just specialize in the ones they know better.... as in they have more access to their spells than wizards.... and can be more reactive if built right.... like snowball, scorching ray, and hellfire ray.... those 3 spells allow me to use them exclusively for single target damage for all spell levels at any time... just slap a combination of metamagic and their always slotted for every spell level at anytime...

wizards have to memorize everything in advance... prepare x amount of this and that.... meaning if you prep and an enemy dispels your team with a buff.... you have to have already planned for that to reappply buffs... try to remove buffs a sorcerer has applied though?.... their just like "I can do this all day"......

or even take something like protection from energy communal.... how many you need and how fast the enemy can melt through it.... wizards are limited.... but a sorcerer can just have them heightened so that they have access to it from spell levels 4-9...

point is with a sorcerer I always have single target damage, area damage, CC, dispels, buffs.... always at my fingertips...

Unrelated, but a Half-elf sorcerer specializing in something like hideous laughter becomes gross. Improved elven immunities, fey bloodline, spell focus and greater (obviously), etc. Get best jokes and suddenly with one cast you have immediately sent a balor off on a laughing jag as you cut his throat. You're basically Magic Joker.

kitsune is stronger.... they get a racial to +1 to enchantment spells..... along with the Quarterstaff of Coercion that gives a +1 to spells with will saves from the Act 1 Library.... and with both spell focus enchantment and fey bloodline....

by time you reach Act 2 and actually get best jokes.... your sitting at +6 with all those combined... +2 from fey, +2 from spell focus combo + 1 from staff +1 from kitsune....

and with a seeker sorcerer you get 3 more feats than usual sorcerer.... so you could even stack some spell pen early for extra boost.... +4 spell pen feats... +2 from holy symbol... +2 from robes from woljiff in Act 2.... looking at +8 to spell pen starting Act 2...

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by revan1229:

Incorrect. Because when Sorcerers level, they pick a very limited number of spells to add to their list. Selecting the best spells is not as simple as it is for a Wizard. A Wizard has the vast majority of an entire spell level available to pick from and add to their list immediately, given scroll access in this game.

I think your thinking it in terms of sorcerer replacing a wizard..... thats not whats being said.... just cause they are similar being arcane classes they are still apples and oranges...

I agree with Chompy about sorcerers.... their like the energizing bunny.... just keep going and going and going....

when I play with my main as a sorcerer I still party with Nenio to cover other areas my isnt....

but thanks to way sorcerers are built they dont really need to learn a lot of spells.... they just specialize in the ones they know better.... as in they have more access to their spells than wizards.... and can be more reactive if built right.... like snowball, scorching ray, and hellfire ray.... those 3 spells allow me to use them exclusively for single target damage for all spell levels at any time... just slap a combination of metamagic and their always slotted for every spell level at anytime...

wizards have to memorize everything in advance... prepare x amount of this and that.... meaning if you prep and an enemy dispels your team with a buff.... you have to have already planned for that to reappply buffs... try to remove buffs a sorcerer has applied though?.... their just like "I can do this all day"......

or even take something like protection from energy communal.... how many you need and how fast the enemy can melt through it.... wizards are limited.... but a sorcerer can just have them heightened so that they have access to it from spell levels 4-9...

point is with a sorcerer I always have single target damage, area damage, CC, dispels, buffs.... always at my fingertips...

No, I'm not thinking that. You seem to have a liberal interpretation of what I write, though......

Wizards can specialize just as much as Sorcerers can. All of those things you described, a Wizard can do. With MM, Scrolls, Loremaster, Abundant Casting, and the fact that you have potentially FIVE other party members that can split spellcasting with you, casters have maximum flexibility in this game. Why can't Wizards have Snowball, Scorching Ray, and Hellfire Ray for single target damage? That is a personal limitation you are placing on them.

And typically in the very few fights you are debuffed (maybe 2 or 3?), Wiz nor Sorc would spend time reapplying buffs to the whole party. There is a reason people complain about buffing in this game.

[Soul]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Soul:

I think your thinking it in terms of sorcerer replacing a wizard..... thats not whats being said.... just cause they are similar being arcane classes they are still apples and oranges...

I agree with Chompy about sorcerers.... their like the energizing bunny.... just keep going and going and going....

when I play with my main as a sorcerer I still party with Nenio to cover other areas my isnt....

but thanks to way sorcerers are built they dont really need to learn a lot of spells.... they just specialize in the ones they know better.... as in they have more access to their spells than wizards.... and can be more reactive if built right.... like snowball, scorching ray, and hellfire ray.... those 3 spells allow me to use them exclusively for single target damage for all spell levels at any time... just slap a combination of metamagic and their always slotted for every spell level at anytime...

wizards have to memorize everything in advance... prepare x amount of this and that.... meaning if you prep and an enemy dispels your team with a buff.... you have to have already planned for that to reappply buffs... try to remove buffs a sorcerer has applied though?.... their just like "I can do this all day"......

or even take something like protection from energy communal.... how many you need and how fast the enemy can melt through it.... wizards are limited.... but a sorcerer can just have them heightened so that they have access to it from spell levels 4-9...

point is with a sorcerer I always have single target damage, area damage, CC, dispels, buffs.... always at my fingertips...

No, I'm not thinking that. You seem to have a liberal interpretation of what I write, though......

Wizards can specialize just as much as Sorcerers can. All of those things you described, a Wizard can do. With MM, Scrolls, Loremaster, Abundant Casting, and the fact that you have potentially FIVE other party members that can split spellcasting with you, casters have maximum flexibility in this game. Why can't Wizards have Snowball, Scorching Ray, and Hellfire Ray for single target damage? That is a personal limitation you are placing on them.

And typically in the very few fights you are debuffed (maybe 2 or 3?), Wiz nor Sorc would spend time reapplying buffs to the whole party. There is a reason people complain about buffing in this game.

I like to reapply buffs.... lol

but not sure what your talking about.... I mean im not saying wizards are weak or anything... I made the comment of them being like apples and oranges.... both fruits but cant really swap them out as ingredients for recipes....

im saying in terms of endurance sorcerer wins out.... a wizard is limited by the amount of spells they can prep.... just cause they have access to all their spells to prep with.... doesnt mean they always have a means to cast what they know at anytime... you have to memorize x of this and that.... there is always a sacrifice wizards have to take when making out their spell selection....

with sorcerers you dont lose out on anything.... what you know is what you can cast as long as you have the means to cast.... learning something like haste with heighten and you can "slot" it into your spellbook for levels 3-9.... allowing you to have the OPTION to cast it .... but not forced to stick with it like a wizard..... things like hideous laughter can be heightened at the same time to give you more options for higher level spells....

but thats the difference... wizards have to prep and are more of the "tactician" type of arcane caster.... sorcerers are spontaneous... meant to be a more "reactive" type of caster....

[dataseer21]

It didn't let me post what I wanted to post before. I was going to mention that the sorceror idea was cool and I might try it. With sorceror and bloodlines you seem to be more locked in for a choice. It is more powerful in the locked in position. Sorcerors get more castings. Unfortunately abundant casting messes with everything. For example a crusader cleric is way more powerful than it otherwise would be. Also classes like that crossblooded get to be way more powerful(I think they get dimished spellcasting. Which if people at owlcat are reading this the crusader sheet doesn't say they have diminished spellcasting. So I guess they don't anymore?). I usually use a set number of spells anyway. But your example before I would use protection from elements and the other spell that sounds similar only one casting at the ready.

I guess instead of remembering the same spell wizards kind of are supposed to have like one of a different kind of spell at a time. So I think I have been playing my wizards kind of like a sorceror but except I like the movement for the metamagic. It would be useful in a campaign but especially after playing through it multiple times you know all of the enemies. You know what is coming. I don't know if that is a point in favor of the wizard or the sorceror though.

EDIT: if you just get the mythic ability to cause your buffs to last 24 you don't need to reapply. But that is two mythic levels.

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by dataseer21:

It didn't let me post what I wanted to post before. I was going to mention that the sorceror idea was cool and I might try it. With sorceror and bloodlines you seem to be more locked in for a choice. It is more powerful in the locked in position. Sorcerors get more castings. Unfortunately abundant casting messes with everything. For example a crusader cleric is way more powerful than it otherwise would be. Also classes like that crossblooded get to be way more powerful(I think they get dimished spellcasting. Which if people at owlcat are reading this the crusader sheet doesn't say they have diminished spellcasting. So I guess they don't anymore?). I usually use a set number of spells anyway. But your example before I would use protection from elements and the other spell that sounds similar only one casting at the ready.

I guess instead of remembering the same spell wizards kind of are supposed to have like one of a different kind of spell at a time. So I think I have been playing my wizards kind of like a sorceror but except I like the movement for the metamagic. It would be useful in a campaign but especially after playing through it multiple times you know all of the enemies. You know what is coming. I don't know if that is a point in favor of the wizard or the sorceror though.

EDIT: if you just get the mythic ability to cause your buffs to last 24 you don't need to reapply. But that is two mythic levels.

They do. It's under 'Crossblooded drawbacks' which doesn't affect spells per day. it's spells known. Honestly, unless you're going pure damage, crossblooded is mid at best in this game. Abundant casting doesn't mess with things that much. It does give the prep casters more flexibility... but it gives spontaneous casters even more stamina.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by revan1229:

No, I'm not thinking that. You seem to have a liberal interpretation of what I write, though......

Wizards can specialize just as much as Sorcerers can. All of those things you described, a Wizard can do. With MM, Scrolls, Loremaster, Abundant Casting, and the fact that you have potentially FIVE other party members that can split spellcasting with you, casters have maximum flexibility in this game. Why can't Wizards have Snowball, Scorching Ray, and Hellfire Ray for single target damage? That is a personal limitation you are placing on them.

And typically in the very few fights you are debuffed (maybe 2 or 3?), Wiz nor Sorc would spend time reapplying buffs to the whole party. There is a reason people complain about buffing in this game.

I like to reapply buffs.... lol

but not sure what your talking about.... I mean im not saying wizards are weak or anything... I made the comment of them being like apples and oranges.... both fruits but cant really swap them out as ingredients for recipes....

im saying in terms of endurance sorcerer wins out.... a wizard is limited by the amount of spells they can prep.... just cause they have access to all their spells to prep with.... doesnt mean they always have a means to cast what they know at anytime... you have to memorize x of this and that.... there is always a sacrifice wizards have to take when making out their spell selection....

with sorcerers you dont lose out on anything.... what you know is what you can cast as long as you have the means to cast.... learning something like haste with heighten and you can "slot" it into your spellbook for levels 3-9.... allowing you to have the OPTION to cast it .... but not forced to stick with it like a wizard..... things like hideous laughter can be heightened at the same time to give you more options for higher level spells....

but thats the difference... wizards have to prep and are more of the "tactician" type of arcane caster.... sorcerers are spontaneous... meant to be a more "reactive" type of caster....

If the B-man dispels all of your party buffs, your Sorc runs around the battlefield applying every single buff that was dispelled to all of your party members, including pets? Is there enough time for that?

Your last point is what I'm talking about. People that say Wizards are "meant" to play like X, and Sorcerers are "meant" to play like Y and can't accept anything different, even in a game like Wrath where casters have maximum flexibility to play how they want. When you were talking about ST damage earlier, MJKorz had posted a Wizard ray caster build that was very strong. He didn't need loads of prep. He was a blaster. He had loads of True Strikes, Scorching Rays, Hellfire Rays, etc.

A Wizard can heighten Haste, too. They have the option to cast it at multiple levels, too? Or they can use Scrolls. Or they can offload that responsibility to a Skald? Both have tradeoffs. Just like Wizard may not have memorized something, Sorc may not have it on their list, period.

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Unrelated, but a Half-elf sorcerer specializing in something like hideous laughter becomes gross. Improved elven immunities, fey bloodline, spell focus and greater (obviously), etc. Get best jokes and suddenly with one cast you have immediately sent a balor off on a laughing jag as you cut his throat. You're basically Magic Joker.

kitsune is stronger.... they get a racial to +1 to enchantment spells..... along with the Quarterstaff of Coercion that gives a +1 to spells with will saves from the Act 1 Library.... and with both spell focus enchantment and fey bloodline....

by time you reach Act 2 and actually get best jokes.... your sitting at +6 with all those combined... +2 from fey, +2 from spell focus combo + 1 from staff +1 from kitsune....

and with a seeker sorcerer you get 3 more feats than usual sorcerer.... so you could even stack some spell pen early for extra boost.... +4 spell pen feats... +2 from holy symbol... +2 from robes from woljiff in Act 2.... looking at +8 to spell pen starting Act 2...

Don't forget, half elves can start with a 22 charisma AND they can take improved elven immunities leaving them one up on kitsune if they spend a feat for it, or even without the feat. plus they can take everything else.

so that's +7 from charisma (with the +2 headband in defender's fart), +2 from fey. +2 from spell focus. +1 from the staff.

And seeker misses out on stuff. 3rd and 15th bloodline powers. Though. mmmm... Honestly the fey bloodline pwoers at 3 and 15 aren't that great... Hmmm... might be doable tbh. I'll have to experiment after the Superb Owl.

[Soul]

Originally posted by revan1229:

Originally posted by Soul:

I like to reapply buffs.... lol

but not sure what your talking about.... I mean im not saying wizards are weak or anything... I made the comment of them being like apples and oranges.... both fruits but cant really swap them out as ingredients for recipes....

im saying in terms of endurance sorcerer wins out.... a wizard is limited by the amount of spells they can prep.... just cause they have access to all their spells to prep with.... doesnt mean they always have a means to cast what they know at anytime... you have to memorize x of this and that.... there is always a sacrifice wizards have to take when making out their spell selection....

with sorcerers you dont lose out on anything.... what you know is what you can cast as long as you have the means to cast.... learning something like haste with heighten and you can "slot" it into your spellbook for levels 3-9.... allowing you to have the OPTION to cast it .... but not forced to stick with it like a wizard..... things like hideous laughter can be heightened at the same time to give you more options for higher level spells....

but thats the difference... wizards have to prep and are more of the "tactician" type of arcane caster.... sorcerers are spontaneous... meant to be a more "reactive" type of caster....

If the B-man dispels all of your party buffs, your Sorc runs around the battlefield applying every single buff that was dispelled to all of your party members, including pets? Is there enough time for that?

Your last point is what I'm talking about. People that say Wizards are "meant" to play like X, and Sorcerers are "meant" to play like Y and can't accept anything different, even in a game like Wrath where casters have maximum flexibility to play how they want. When you were talking about ST damage earlier, MJKorz had posted a Wizard ray caster build that was very strong. He didn't need loads of prep. He was a blaster. He had loads of True Strikes, Scorching Rays, Hellfire Rays, etc.

A Wizard can heighten Haste, too. They have the option to cast it at multiple levels, too? Or they can use Scrolls. Or they can offload that responsibility to a Skald? Both have tradeoffs. Just like Wizard may not have memorized something, Sorc may not have it on their list, period.

I know they can both achieve similar goals.... I meant that when it comes down to it the "flavor" is unique.... like...

lets say level 3 spells for instance...

I typically learn.... lightning bolt, haste, resist energy communal, and battering blast.....

as a sorcerer im stuck with those and only those.... nenio who I party with as well can use any 3rd level spell slot they wish to slot for...

but Nenio has abjuration as an opposition school.... meaning my sorcerer who doesnt have opposition schools can make it easier to apply resist energy communal.... so having both Nenio and my sorcerer learn enduring and greater enduring... I can make it so my sorcerer is the one that can use resist energy communal.... which as a sorcerer I could apply it right before 9 hour rest and have 15 hours left..... and after ive cleared everything.... thanks to heighten metamagic I could reapply it before traveling again at higher spell slots I didnt use up.... I like to run around with resist energy to ALL of them at once....

and spells like haste.... I dont have to "prep" my spells.... but applying metamagic to them it in a way "preps" them into higher level spell slots.... I could cast haste as a 3rd level spell... or slot it with metamagics to be able to cast it as higher level spells.... as long as I have spell slots level 3 or higher I will always be able to cast haste whenever I want to...

so that means even though I have lightning bolt, haste, resist energy communal, and battering blast as my 3rd level spells.... what I really have for 3rd level spells.... looks like...

magic missile bolstered, heightened...
burning hand selective, bolstered...
grease selective, heightened...
entangle selective, heightened...
snowball bolstered, heightened...
hideous laughter heightened...
scorching ray bolstered...
glitterdust selective...
web selective...
invisibility heightened...
mirror image heightened...

(I learn empower metamagic later on... this is just what I slot in as soon as I can)

there are other spells I have that I dont bother using heighten with.... like shield and expeditious retreat.... 24 hour duration and low level spells like that dont really need to worry about reapplying them lol.... and some other bloodline spells that I dont really use much... and also not even counting gear that gives spells like red salamander....

but instead of just looking at it as learning only 4 spells.... with metamagics im expanding my 3rd level slots with way more spells.... able to use any combination of them... which I do use them.... these are always "prepped" for me to "react" with....

[Soul]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Originally posted by Soul:

kitsune is stronger.... they get a racial to +1 to enchantment spells..... along with the Quarterstaff of Coercion that gives a +1 to spells with will saves from the Act 1 Library.... and with both spell focus enchantment and fey bloodline....

by time you reach Act 2 and actually get best jokes.... your sitting at +6 with all those combined... +2 from fey, +2 from spell focus combo + 1 from staff +1 from kitsune....

and with a seeker sorcerer you get 3 more feats than usual sorcerer.... so you could even stack some spell pen early for extra boost.... +4 spell pen feats... +2 from holy symbol... +2 from robes from woljiff in Act 2.... looking at +8 to spell pen starting Act 2...

Don't forget, half elves can start with a 22 charisma AND they can take improved elven immunities leaving them one up on kitsune if they spend a feat for it, or even without the feat. plus they can take everything else.

so that's +7 from charisma (with the +2 headband in defender's fart), +2 from fey. +2 from spell focus. +1 from the staff.

And seeker misses out on stuff. 3rd and 15th bloodline powers. Though. mmmm... Honestly the fey bloodline pwoers at 3 and 15 aren't that great... Hmmm... might be doable tbh. I'll have to experiment after the Superb Owl.

actually with seeker you lose out on 3rd and 15th level bloodline powers for the bloodline you start with.... if you pick another bloodline with second bloodline mythic ability you keep the 3rd and 15th bloodline powers for that one...

so fey bloodline you lose out on woodland stride and the +2 to spell resistance checks at 3rd and 15th levels....

but with something like say dragonic bloodline added you'd keep the dragon resistances and get wings at 15th level...

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Don't forget, half elves can start with a 22 charisma AND they can take improved elven immunities leaving them one up on kitsune if they spend a feat for it, or even without the feat. plus they can take everything else.

so that's +7 from charisma (with the +2 headband in defender's fart), +2 from fey. +2 from spell focus. +1 from the staff.

And seeker misses out on stuff. 3rd and 15th bloodline powers. Though. mmmm... Honestly the fey bloodline pwoers at 3 and 15 aren't that great... Hmmm... might be doable tbh. I'll have to experiment after the Superb Owl.

actually with seeker you lose out on 3rd and 15th level bloodline powers for the bloodline you start with.... if you pick another bloodline with second bloodline mythic ability you keep the 3rd and 15th bloodline powers for that one...

so fey bloodline you lose out on woodland stride and the +2 to spell resistance checks at 3rd and 15th levels....

but with something like say dragonic bloodline added you'd keep the dragon resistances and get wings at 15th level...

Would Arcane bloodline still get the level 15 +2 school boost?

[dataseer21]

This turned into people talking about how they love sorceror lol.

[Soul]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Originally posted by Soul:

actually with seeker you lose out on 3rd and 15th level bloodline powers for the bloodline you start with.... if you pick another bloodline with second bloodline mythic ability you keep the 3rd and 15th bloodline powers for that one...

so fey bloodline you lose out on woodland stride and the +2 to spell resistance checks at 3rd and 15th levels....

but with something like say dragonic bloodline added you'd keep the dragon resistances and get wings at 15th level...

Would Arcane bloodline still get the level 15 +2 school boost?

with second bloodline... yes

the penalty seeker gets only affects the base bloodline you have when you pick seeker class...

its same as crossblooded too.... like the normal crossblooded you pick 2 bloodlines but only get spells from the second one.... but if you get second bloodline mythic feat for a 3rd bloodline you gain the full benefits of that bloodline you pick...

[Triple G]

For Through the Ashes / Lord of Nothing it can be good to go for 20, because You get only 2 attribute points. But the later points are very expensive, so i´d probably also think about 19 and 17, and then invest some points elsewhere. Wisdom gives save throws, and con gives a bit more health on top of it. (if i was into using spells and weapons which make use of dex, which probably also means to invest two feats into it, like point blank and precise shot, or anything weapon finesse, and feats are tight as You cap out on lvl 11.)

In the main campaign i always only go 19 in the main stat, because 5 points to get (while the exception there was my main crusader cleric, who started with 19 strength, instead of 19 wisdom)

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by dataseer21:

This turned into people talking about how they love sorceror lol.

Good.
I always wanted to learn why people favor sorceror over wizard.

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

Would Arcane bloodline still get the level 15 +2 school boost?

with second bloodline... yes

the penalty seeker gets only affects the base bloodline you have when you pick seeker class...

its same as crossblooded too.... like the normal crossblooded you pick 2 bloodlines but only get spells from the second one.... but if you get second bloodline mythic feat for a 3rd bloodline you gain the full benefits of that bloodline you pick...

... Huh ... Neat ...