Barbarian or Fighter?

[ChompyRiley]

And what subclass? I'm fond of Invulnerable rager and all those sweet sweet rage powers. But Fighter gets more feats and is more consistent. I know that with mythic you can get limitless rage, but it feels like fighter is still the better martial class. Mutation Warrior gets that nice mutagen which is like Lite-Rage. And two-handed warrior just does massive massive damage all the damn time.

[pete3great]

Might I interest you in the Slayer? All the feats you'll ever need for a two handed fighter, plus precision damage.

[Clangeddin.86]

The mutation warrior is the best fighter subclass and it's superior to the baseline fighter, it loses the mostly useless/subpar armor related feats and gains mutagen, which makes it better not only offensively, but defensively as well.
This gap became even wider with the latest major patch that introduced mythic focus armor feats. For Heavy Armor user, dexterity became almost irrelevant (except for the 13 DEX requirement of certain feats), since Strength flat out replaces it (with half the modifier), this makes the Armor Training ability obsolete for them.

For medium armor the scale up is reliant on two stats (Dexterity AND Constitution), and Mutagen allows you to increase both by substantial amounts, adding an additional stacking armor bonus on top of that. Even if you do the math the archetypes with armor training get +4 max dexterity modifier on AC, whereas grand mutagen gives a +6 AC bonus AND two stat (+8 and +6) which can translate into another 3 or 4 additional AC. Which means that it's 9 or 10, both of which are higher than 4.
Tower Shield specialist max dexterity increase does not work with mythic medium armor focus, only the lowest will apply.

To top it all, mutagen warrior can get feral mutagen + wings, which is another additional 3 AC against melee attacks. Other warrior archetypes can obtain this too, but only via certain races or mythic paths, the mutagen warrior gets them on every race and mythic path.

As for barbarian, do not be fooled by the Invulnerable Rager's DR, Damage reduction is an anemic mechanic in this game and it's only shining spot is against swarm enemies. By the time you achieve DR in good quantity, swarm enemies will be mostly trivial and dealt with before they can approach you.

Also, when you think of DR, do not think about the maximum value alone you achieve, but subtract it with the DR that is normally achieved by standard buffs/equipment, now ponder that difference in DR and compare if it's actually worth it when compared to the opportunity cost in AC you risk incurring by investing too much in DR. I learned the hard way in my first playtrhough made with an Invulnerable Rager/TowerShield Specialist/Stalwart Defender.

And if you're thinking that it scales up with highest difficulty, well, it does, but only partially, because even if DR is effectively doubled (because it's applied before difficulty multiplier), the actual damage inflicted by enemies is more than doubled (there isn't just the difficulty multiplier, but also all the stat boost that greatly increase the base damage of enemies)

Long story short, Armor Class is a far superior mechanic compared to DR, especially because of the sinergy it has with concealment and, most importantly, protective luck, hex, which basically square (or cubes if stacked twice) your chance to be hit (so 1/20 chance becomes 1/400 or 1/8000 if double stacked).

In terms of pure Armor Class, Instinct Warrior is superior to all other Barbarian archetypes, even if it's wearing armor (despite the fact the signature abilities require no armor and no shield equipped), simply because it's the only barbarian subclass that does not apply the -2 AC penalty on rage.

As for the barbarian vs fighter choice, I'd say they are mostly equivalent. I just went legend and grabbed both, so there's that.
Just pick the one you are thematically more interested in, perhaps the fighter is better in the early game due to having more feats/gear and barbarian requiring Unlimited Rage to be truly effective (so at the end of act 1).

[pete3great]

Originally posted by Clangeddin.86:

The mutation warrior is the best fighter subclass and it's superior to the baseline fighter

Quick note, just because mutation warrior is arguably better than the other subclasses isn't the same as saying the other subclasses are weak or that you'll have a bad/hard time playing
one. Even a base line fighter, buffed, built, and well-armored, is extremely dangerous.

[Clangeddin.86]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Originally posted by Clangeddin.86:

The mutation warrior is the best fighter subclass and it's superior to the baseline fighter

Quick note, just because mutation warrior is arguably better than the other subclasses isn't the same as saying the other subclasses are weak or that you'll have a bad/hard time playing
one. Even a base line fighter, buffed, built, and well-armored, is extremely dangerous.

Yes, of course, this is true, I wasn't implying that all other fighters suck.
Well maybe Tower Shield Specialist does suck, but that's up for debate. :P

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by Clangeddin.86:

The mutation warrior is the best fighter subclass and it's superior to the baseline fighter, it loses the mostly useless/subpar armor related feats and gains mutagen, which makes it better not only offensively, but defensively as well.
This gap became even wider with the latest major patch that introduced mythic focus armor feats. For Heavy Armor user, dexterity became almost irrelevant (except for the 13 DEX requirement of certain feats), since Strength flat out replaces it (with half the modifier), this makes the Armor Training ability obsolete for them.

For medium armor the scale up is reliant on two stats (Dexterity AND Constitution), and Mutagen allows you to increase both by substantial amounts, adding an additional stacking armor bonus on top of that. Even if you do the math the archetypes with armor training get +4 max dexterity modifier on AC, whereas grand mutagen gives a +6 AC bonus AND two stat (+8 and +6) which can translate into another 3 or 4 additional AC. Which means that it's 9 or 10, both of which are higher than 4.
Tower Shield specialist max dexterity increase does not work with mythic medium armor focus, only the lowest will apply.

To top it all, mutagen warrior can get feral mutagen + wings, which is another additional 3 AC against melee attacks. Other warrior archetypes can obtain this too, but only via certain races or mythic paths, the mutagen warrior gets them on every race and mythic path.

As for barbarian, do not be fooled by the Invulnerable Rager's DR, Damage reduction is an anemic mechanic in this game and it's only shining spot is against swarm enemies. By the time you achieve DR in good quantity, swarm enemies will be mostly trivial and dealt with before they can approach you.

Also, when you think of DR, do not think about the maximum value alone you achieve, but subtract it with the DR that is normally achieved by standard buffs/equipment, now ponder that difference in DR and compare if it's actually worth it when compared to the opportunity cost in AC you risk incurring by investing too much in DR. I learned the hard way in my first playtrhough made with an Invulnerable Rager/TowerShield Specialist/Stalwart Defender.

And if you're thinking that it scales up with highest difficulty, well, it does, but only partially, because even if DR is effectively doubled (because it's applied before difficulty multiplier), the actual damage inflicted by enemies is more than doubled (there isn't just the difficulty multiplier, but also all the stat boost that greatly increase the base damage of enemies)

Long story short, Armor Class is a far superior mechanic compared to DR, especially because of the sinergy it has with concealment and, most importantly, protective luck, hex, which basically square (or cubes if stacked twice) your chance to be hit (so 1/20 chance becomes 1/400 or 1/8000 if double stacked).

In terms of pure Armor Class, Instinct Warrior is superior to all other Barbarian archetypes, even if it's wearing armor (despite the fact the signature abilities require no armor and no shield equipped), simply because it's the only barbarian subclass that does not apply the -2 AC penalty on rage.

As for the barbarian vs fighter choice, I'd say they are mostly equivalent. I just went legend and grabbed both, so there's that.
Just pick the one you are thematically more interested in, perhaps the fighter is better in the early game due to having more feats/gear and barbarian requiring Unlimited Rage to be truly effective (so at the end of act 1).

Hmmm... I just ran the math, and mutation warrior really only gets a +2 on damage over a two-handed fighter. Two handed fighter gets a bit of an early jump, but in the end Mutation Warrior wins out with just like... a little bit since it gets some slightly useful stuff besides the stat boosts. I guess Mutation warrior IS kinda better.

[ChompyRiley]

But basically, what I want is to do big damage. Big weapon damage. I could do a twf build, but I also like the idea of smacking the ♥♥♥♥ out of enemies with the biggest possible weapon (probably grave-singer). I understand that twf is (probably?) higher damage output, but it requires pounce and charge lanes. So I kinda want to do the two handed weapon thing.

So that's what I'm debating. Barbarian is classic for big beefy two-handing, but I feel like fighter beats it out in this game. With higher encounter density and longer encounters, until you get limitless rage barbarian is kinda lack-luster. and even then, it's at most a +4 to hit and damage... Maybe a bit more with lethal stance? I feel like fighter's just a better barbarian without as much resource management.

Am I missing something about barbarian in this game or am I over-idealizing the fighter? I just don't know @_@

[Clangeddin.86]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

But basically, what I want is to do big damage. Big weapon damage. I could do a twf build, but I also like the idea of smacking the ♥♥♥♥ out of enemies with the biggest possible weapon (probably grave-singer). I understand that twf is (probably?) higher damage output, but it requires pounce and charge lanes. So I kinda want to do the two handed weapon thing.

So that's what I'm debating. Barbarian is classic for big beefy two-handing, but I feel like fighter beats it out in this game. With higher encounter density and longer encounters, until you get limitless rage barbarian is kinda lack-luster. and even then, it's at most a +4 to hit and damage... Maybe a bit more with lethal stance? I feel like fighter's just a better barbarian without as much resource management.

Am I missing something about barbarian in this game or am I over-idealizing the fighter? I just don't know @_@

I'd say that both work well, perhaps the fighter wins out in the end in the pure damage department, but there are things that the barbarian can achieve which are rather powerful too, for starters barbarian can get pounce, pounce is full attack on charge, in turn based mode that's a free surprise round + full attack on one enemy.

Barbarian Rage can also be empowered with the rage powerful to be quite good, Lethal stance scales up to +10 AB (4 from rage and 6 from power) if I'm not mistaken and can grant increased multiplier (but with all weapons)

Barbarians also have the mad dog archetype, which basically makes it mounted with all the perks of a mount, fighter does not get a mount archetype. You could ride Bismuth as a mount, but he's not really ideal for that, Bismuth can be buffed to decent levels with Dragonkind 3 by a Brownfur Trasnmuter, but at that point he can no longer be mounted. His 400000 weight carry capacity is quite hilarious though.

In the end if you are truly worried about having to choose, why not go legend and get both to level 20?

[pete3great]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

I understand that twf is (probably?) higher damage output, but it requires pounce and charge lanes.

nah. doesn't require that at all. because you're a fighter and get a ridiculous number of feats, you can dreadful carnage AND cleave. you'll quickly find you're more dangerous than the best fireball. when you hit, you explode everything around you. and if something survives, it's terrified of what it just witnessed. hahahahahahahahha!

also, you can achieve this with slayer too, plus precision damage. just sayin'

[pete3great]

Oh, but why not bloodrager? Why has no one asked that yet?

[Clangeddin.86]

Originally posted by pete3great:

Oh, but why not bloodrager? Why has no one asked that yet?

Because the thread is "Barbarian or Fighter?"

[pete3great]

Originally posted by Clangeddin.86:

Originally posted by pete3great:

Oh, but why not bloodrager? Why has no one asked that yet?

Because the thread is "Barbarian or Fighter?"

Normally I'd agree, but I feel like bloodrager is a special case, basically being a second, improved draft of the barbarian.

[ChompyRiley]

Originally posted by Clangeddin.86:

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

But basically, what I want is to do big damage. Big weapon damage. I could do a twf build, but I also like the idea of smacking the ♥♥♥♥ out of enemies with the biggest possible weapon (probably grave-singer). I understand that twf is (probably?) higher damage output, but it requires pounce and charge lanes. So I kinda want to do the two handed weapon thing.

So that's what I'm debating. Barbarian is classic for big beefy two-handing, but I feel like fighter beats it out in this game. With higher encounter density and longer encounters, until you get limitless rage barbarian is kinda lack-luster. and even then, it's at most a +4 to hit and damage... Maybe a bit more with lethal stance? I feel like fighter's just a better barbarian without as much resource management.

Am I missing something about barbarian in this game or am I over-idealizing the fighter? I just don't know @_@

I'd say that both work well, perhaps the fighter wins out in the end in the pure damage department, but there are things that the barbarian can achieve which are rather powerful too, for starters barbarian can get pounce, pounce is full attack on charge, in turn based mode that's a free surprise round + full attack on one enemy.

Barbarian Rage can also be empowered with the rage powerful to be quite good, Lethal stance scales up to +10 AB (4 from rage and 6 from power) if I'm not mistaken and can grant increased multiplier (but with all weapons)

Barbarians also have the mad dog archetype, which basically makes it mounted with all the perks of a mount, fighter does not get a mount archetype. You could ride Bismuth as a mount, but he's not really ideal for that, Bismuth can be buffed to decent levels with Dragonkind 3 by a Brownfur Trasnmuter, but at that point he can no longer be mounted. His 400000 weight carry capacity is quite hilarious though.

In the end if you are truly worried about having to choose, why not go legend and get both to level 20?

I don't like legend. It makes Mommy sad.

Originally posted by pete3great:

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

I understand that twf is (probably?) higher damage output, but it requires pounce and charge lanes.

nah. doesn't require that at all. because you're a fighter and get a ridiculous number of feats, you can dreadful carnage AND cleave. you'll quickly find you're more dangerous than the best fireball. when you hit, you explode everything around you. and if something survives, it's terrified of what it just witnessed. hahahahahahahahha!

also, you can achieve this with slayer too, plus precision damage. just sayin'

I already move Wendy into being a slayer. And why would TWF benefit any more from dreadful carnage than a two-handed? I suppose more attacks to be flat-footed towards. I dunno. I just feel like twf benefits from pounce and charge lanes really well. I suppose I could go kitsune and do twf-pounce-intimidate build. But I dunno. I did that for an azata build. I know it's good, heck it was a crpgbro build I cribbed from. I just never felt like I needed the extreme number of attacks. I dunno. I've probably played this game too much. On the one hand, if I wanted to be *really* optimal I'd do a caster. On the other, I find Unfair to be too frustrating so I typically play on slightly customized daring.

If it matters, the build I did with twf was Keen Kitsune Mutation warrior into azata. capitalized on number of attacks plus a good strength plus pounce to bring out the best in Incredible Might. And while I LOVE azata, I really just wanna get back to basics with a more 'serious' run. Plus Inheribro is the best romance don't even @me.

A martial angel. None of this fancy multiclassing. None of this gish-oracle stuff. Just a human fighter or half-orc barbarian to hack up legions of demons and shove Iomedae and Galfrey's face in the fact that he accomplished more in ten weeks than they did in a hundred years.

Maybe it's the depression that's making it hard to settle on just one specific thing to do. Mutation warrior's fine! I like it even, but it's another button to remember to push. Barbarian is fine, but it's got even more buttons. I think a basic human fighter would do the trick just fine. Big armor. Big weapon. He's no paladin. He's not a divinely empowered battle oracle. He can't throw magic. But he does one thing *really* well. He hits stuff **really** hard.

Mmmm... yeah stream of consciousness and bouncing stuff off you guys is nice. So... Hmmm... Basic fighter or two handed? with maybe a bit of vital striking?

[Clangeddin.86]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

I don't like legend. It makes Mommy sad.

https://imgflip.com/i/8f1nj0

[ChompyRiley]

We stan best mom in this house

[pete3great]

Originally posted by ChompyRiley:

And why would TWF benefit any more from dreadful carnage than a two-handed?

Because I had a brain fart and read twf as two-handed for some reason.