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That said: most of the games you play and applications you use are spying you far harder. Owlcat got slapped, because they were upfront about what they were doing.
I was going to purchase the game in the current sale. Reading the review changed my mind. Corporations who think they can change our agreement AFTER I purchased their software for their own purpose/benefit cannot be trusted. Why is an EULA only binding for the customer, not for the seller? When you can suddenly do what you want with my Computer just by changing some lines in a textfile this is ridiculous. In my opinion this is even illegal.
I'm glad I waited long enough to see your real "face". Doubt I will purchase games from you in the future. Trust ist something to be earned, not to be squandered.
May be you should find out what the actual change was.
you do realize the app in question is one you already use if you use things like amazon, google, and like thousands of other companies right?..... they dont give you any warning about doing so either..... if anything i'd say the devs here deserve more respect due to the fact they were open and up front about it from the very start.... even outright removing it when fans wanted it.... but they didnt do it "sneaky" like at all.... when it was added that day it was right up front on top of their patch announcement....
so I mean your logic doesnt make sense to me....
I mean you got a very small independent company that put in something you dont like and was removed due to fans insistence...
meanwhile you have other major companies like google, amazon, and steam itself.... that use that same thing without your knowledge or permission behind your back.... are they getting the same treatment from you?....
the only message your really sending is they should be punished for being so open about it.... I mean I never even heard of the app or knew it even existed till this game made it known.... didnt even know how many other companies have been using it without my knowledge... so the devs being honest here in a way opened my eyes to the whole thing....
why should I be mad at someone who is honest like that?.... they even put the players first in the end and removed it.... which you claim is the "right thing".... so you want to condemn them for doing the "wrong thing" first (which I can understand).... and when they do the "right thing" you still wanna condemn them....
but the takeaway from your logic appears to be wanting to make game developers more like politicians.....
1. dont be honest and up front and do it sneaky like without telling people.....
2. if you get caught and people backlash then dont bother backtracking because your actions mean nothing to those people.... they'll condemn you for what you did AND for you trying to make amends....
I on the other hand would prefer to have a different takeaway...
1. be honest to the consumer.... they were present when the whole thing happened and responded to the feedback instead of hiding.... they get positive points in my book for that...
2. them deciding that the consumer means more to them than the marketing app that was in question and so their actions of backtracking.... they should get positive points for that too.... they didnt double down or try to stand their ground which they could have.... I mean more marketing means more money means able to maintain things better financially... and with today whats going on with major gaming studios firing people left and right pretty much like cd projekt red and blizzard they had a hill they could have probably stood on... but no... they chose to stand with the consumers... so I think they deserve more respect than condemnation...
plus a big factor too is they are a small independent company.... like their main website says its 120+ people employed... and this game is their first as an independent company.... with rogue trader being their second game... and as an independent company they are im sure still on a learning curve when it comes to a lot of things.... which they admitted that in hindsight the whole app thing while it was a bad experience... was also a valuable learning experience for them.... learning how the players feel about certain things.... and that they will not repeat the same mistake in the future... their honesty and their loyalty to the consumers is something that should be respected....
they may be a small independent company now.... but over time they will probably grow and get better at what they do... and one day if they do manage to evolve into a AAA type of company.... i'd want them to keep being the type of people they are now.... honest to the players and well.... "human".... being the type of people that will admit to a mistake and be apologetic and stand up for the players..... so I think in order to help make that happen is to give them fair criticism when its deserved and also fair praise when its earned... and so far their actions have only earned my praise...
even if the said person is rude and presumptuous, you have a lot of patience
thank you.... I try to be as fair as I can.... one of the downsides on platforms like these is trying to understand ones tone the right way... I mean that person was rather rude true.... but im not aware of how much knowledge they had on the subject.... and when it comes to decisions... making logical choices is hard when emotions are involved....
which is kinda how the whole thing played out when they did the app thing.... when I was forming my own opinion on the matter all those points I pointed out were pretty much things that I went through seeing myself.... when it happened my anxiety kicked in and my emotional side wanted to panic and join in the flame war at the very beginning... but I forced that aside and tried to logic my way through it fairly.... we as humans can slip into a "mob mentality" so easily afterall... so I was able to gather the info I needed to form my own opinion that wasnt influenced by others.... which by time I was done researching it and formed my own opinion on the matter....the devs had already decided to backtrack the whole thing....
so for me I did the research and put time and effort into learning about what happened and why... that person stated they only read one review and formed their opinion over it.... so it appeared they lacked a lot of knowledge of the matter they wanted to complain about....
and well.... the devs here are rather nice and supportive of the players.... so since their willing to stand up for the players I think its only right to stand up for them too.... :P
How is that surprising? That's the internet.
collect some data its ok when I play the game but example blizzard I dont trust or microsoft
As I mentioned Devs/Pulishers have seen fail this "scheme" for other games/companies and yet they try it again and again. I don't understand this. I can only assume this is stupitidy, naive optimism or optimistic naivety. Then they are "surprised" about the reaction and this suprises me. Because for "normal" people this is totally obvious. And I expect if other companies would have done it to Owlcat (retroactively changing stuff, collecting sensible data, leaving no choice) they would rebel against it too. Just imagine their engine provider Unity would retroactively change conditions and charge money for installations ;). Would you accept it? Would you stay with this engine? Would you still trust this company in the future? If no, how can you expect your users will behave differently when forced in a similar situation? Why is it ok when you do it to your customers but not when Unity does it to you?
Because others do wrong things I shall silently accept any wrongdoings from now on? I always thought (and I might be wrong here) the aim of a company is happy customers. If you FORCE such crap up onto players how could this make them happy? Some (like you?) don't care. Some (like me) do. Just ask and you are fine.
If you want spyware on your computer, fine. Then the decision to include it in the game was the best move Owlcat could make. But you can't assume that applies to all other people too. Some do actualy care about their privacy and security. For those it was the worst move/decision. Which of both "sides" is right, which is wrong? Who cares? It does not matter. The only question should be "did it serve my customers in the best possible way", so that they can be happy to be my customers and hopefully will be in the future? And this only applies to a part/fraction of the customers, namely those that explicitely want spyware installed on their computers. It does not matter how much that are. All what matters is, what happens to the rest of the customers? What will they do?
But you don't state this will not happen again (as far as I know). You have not declared how you handle these issues in the future. If you leave this option open for future this is exactly what users expect from you. That you will do it again.
What "misinformation" are you talking about? Who informed the people wrong? If people get wrong information how can they draw correct conclusions? If the correct information is not spread properly is this the customers/users/players fault? If you want proper feedback provide proper information. Simple as that.
What do you mean? I'm referring to:
I have read parts of How to opt-out from 3rd party data-tracking?. And most users there are against that move and describe their problems. So what "actual change" beside that should I am aware of?
Especially Post #31 by Yun sheds some light on the legal problems with GDPR, and they were just ignored by the devs to "push their agenda through". EU has about 445 million people. Can you really ignore their laws and "do what you want"?
And in the end I don't need to know exactly what information is collected. If its a little more or a little less. If its stored 1 year or 5 years. Data collection has nothing to do with the game. It does not improve the product in any way for the customers. It just benefits the collector (and maybe Owlcat a little bit). Forcing it on players (no opt in) is a malicious move. Changing EULA/conditions retroactively to players disadvantage is a malicious move. This tells me how the company "operates" and how they intend to treat their players. I just don't want to be one of them because I care about how people treat me. So the only questions relevant for my decision here are:
1) Did they change the EULA?
2) Did they collect data without players consent? (I mean real consent here, politely asking a yes/no question and acting accordingly).
If any of your answers to those 2 simple questions is "yes", I have enough information already. What else should I need? Does a certain "reason" or "explanation" makes any of these anti-customer decisions more justified?
You see the irony?
As I already said: I have seen this EXACT SAME scheme for many games. And they all have "good reasons" to include their "spyware"/tracking/datacollection. 7 Days to Die even searches peoples browser history. Can you imagine that?
Isn't that behavior of Owlcat (and similar companies) what is really "presumptuous" here? That they can decide about my device, about my data? I just want to protect it. Because I consider it mine.
And I would'nt call it rudeness but exasperation. Being treated like an "idiot" by companies who think to get away which such "schemes" does not make me feel like I expect customers SHOULD feel.
If you are ok with what they have done, fine. But why do you "belittle" me for not beeing ok with it?
Should a foreing lady on the street get the same treatment from me like my spouse? Is it discrimination if I treat either differently?
There is ALWAYS a cost/benefit estimation. Just because I'm not ok with a certain thing in ONE situation/scenario does NOT automatically mean I'm NEVER ok with it. Nor that I have to accept it in EVERY other case. I decide this from case to case. Is it worth to me to give my data for what I receive? Sometimes it is, sometimes its not. And it's pretty bold when a "a very small independent company" tries to play in the big league of "google, amazon, and steam".
Is this your argument? Your "justification"? Amazon needs my address to know where to send my packages to (obviously). According to your argument Owlcat now also has the "right" to get my address? No. I decide, from case to case which data I want to share with which company for what reason. And even this decision can change over time. There cannot be a single "very small independent company" take this decision from me and decide above my head. Thanks for asking.
This is the message you get from reading my post? Maybe it's the language barrier (I'm not native english speaker, so if it is my fault: sorry!).
What I REALLY want from such companies (all of them!) who think they can violate my privacy:
- Respect privacy. It's important to many people.
- Respect the law. I live in Europe. I'm not a lawyer but AFAIK GDPR forbids data collection without consent. Forcing it on people is not consent (think of rape).
- Respect the customer. Ask for permission. Ask for consent. And accept when customer denies it. He is still a paying customer and shoud be able to play the game. Not beeing "pushed out" of it because he don't want data collection.
- Last and most important point: DONT BE IDIOTS. Such schemes have never been a good idea. And I'm not aware of a case where it was without loss of trust and customers and eventually turned back. Just be sensible and treat others like you want to be treated yourself. Retroactively changing conditions BOTH sides agreed on to the DISADVANTAGE of one side cannot be good idea. Are such things teached at business schools? Or how do people come to such ideas in such prevalence?
So when you see it failing for others and still try it yourself does not seem to be a wise move to me. The only "excuse" would be if they had not seen failing it for others. And this is VERY hard to believe. And still there would be common sense, and morals, and laws, right?
I'm not sure I can respect that. Since the move was so obviously wrong on many levels. The "excuse" only seems to be standard company "gibberish" to reduce the damage. I'm not sure its meant in an honest way (but I'm pessimist by default). In the end we cannot tell with certainty how this will change their attitude in the future. Your guess is as good as mine.
Do you mean better at collecting data? Or by explaining/finding reasons for it? Just playing devils advocate here. I've been through this so often that not even sarcasm feels adequate any more,
I assume that decision to include spyware was made by some people in business suits, not in the developer departments. Thats why companies should get rid of those people who don't actually contribute to the work beeing done and satisfied customers, but only alienate customers and make them angry. Those do not help if you want a sustainable business. This requires trust and goodwill of customers. If you stab customers in the back this way, many people will not forget. And it does not matter how good your next games will be. Those people will just look elsewhere because they remember how you treated them and what business "practices" belong to your portfolio. I cannot say wether it's 0.1% or 10% of customers. You must decide wether you can forgo on their business, their "word of mouth" and their sales.
Thats what I request/ask/demand/wish from all those companies too. Just apply some simple logic to your decisions. Just put yourself in your customers position and think it through. I really miss that. The worst/weird thing is, companies actively deny that, and then ask us customers for it!
I really apreciate your calm and helpful way to clarify things for me. But as you see I'm tired and burned by experiencing this EXACT scheme again and again. It is so frustrating. I can't understand it and I don't want to deal with such crap any more. I just want to "warn" all companies out there, that this behavior will lose them a single sale (mine). If it is worth my time and energy I don't know. They probably don't care about "little" people like me. And when their marketing stuff gets them more sales than they loose it's still a net win. I understand this at least from the business side. But not from the customers side. As a customer I only see beeing treated badly for no "good reason". And this is something I cannot accept/justify. Because I don't see how I "deserve" beeing treated badly for giving them my money.
I'm thankful that review "warned" me. And 190 people found that helpful too! So I guess there are still some people caring.
What information you think would have changed my mind? When I know Owlcat "betrays" customers, is "stealing" their private data, changing conditions AFTER purchase and so on I don't need a good explanation or a "reason". If the facts are wrong, tell me the truth. I want to decide and "judge" based on that. But if that is really what happened that's all I need to know to decide I don't want to do any business with them.
And since there are many threads about this topic on the first page this tells me there is plenty of confusion and uncertainty with the players. It's just harmful to bundle your software with malware.
Good attitude. And I hope they deserve it.
You can stop trying to "convice" me to change my mind. This won't happen. But I'm open to further discussion of all that data collection, EULA changing and "marketing" stuff. Wether it's "required" and what is justified for it. Why it is forced on players and so on. This is what I don't understand. How people in management come to these conclusions. How it helps them etc.. It's just ridiculous how they can think this is a good idea and keep a straight face.
About this game specifically I don't really care. I have too many games and too little time. Yours seemed interesting, but others do aswell. So wether a game is good or bad is not a primary criteria for me. How I "feel" as a customer beeing treated by a company has a much larger impact. When you treat me bad I can live with that. But you loose me as a customer. Simple as that.
Telling the companies what I want/need/expect as a customer is the only way I have to make sure they know what they shall "produce" if they want my money. What should I do in your opinion? If people remain silent about their woes nothing changes and both sides are "dissatisfied". People don't get what they want (privacy respecting games) and Devs/Publishers don't get enough sales and must dismiss people. So telling a company what I expect is a good thing, or not? If those companies listen to me is their own choice. And I choose where to put my money.
My point is, I have seen this fail too many times. Why are they even trying any more? Do they consider themself "smarter" than those people this has failed for before? Or do they believe someday customers don't care anymore because "everyone else does it too"? This is what some of you are advocating (if I understand you right!): Just dont care because everyone takes your data. It would be funny if it would not be so sad. Customers loose trust, "their" games (when they cannot play them any more) and time fighting this crap. Companies loose customers, money and time dealing with this crap. I don't see ANY benefit. So please Devs, for any game/software: DONT DO THIS! It's just stupid. I'm sick of your excuses albeit you should know better.
In the end I'm just wondering which game dev company is next stepping in this obvious trap and treating their customers like idiots. And the apologies afterwards are probably pure comedy again. And then they claim they didn't know. Apology and ask forgiveness. Again. Again and Again. I'm so tired of this whole fuss. When do they learn it?
You love typing; 100% agree on all the points. People just assume we are fine when It's Google or Microsoft does it. That's not true. I do whatever I can to protect my right to privacy and ownership.
When you see a gaming company treat their customers like cattle or view them as such anyway, I lose respect, trust and any interest in their future products. How do you earn that back? Is that even possible?
Which is why You have to accept an agreement to look at any web page, and any site needs to have these terms written somewhere, while i don´t think that many people consider reading them. It´s mainly for bigger companies, so they can sue smaller companies for their wrong terms of agreement. This is how lawyers earn their money. Else it´s all about the wording. Like here on steam they say "we store data as long as it is necessary", because it sounds better than "we store data for as long as we see fit." but both means the same, while there are exceptions for certain law requirements. Else clicking "okay" is the consent in the web. Or "Agree with all cookies". Or "accept". Or click "the green check mark."
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Else i haven´t read all of this. What´s the main concern? And what do You think they would do with all the data they collect? I mean there are not only downsides to it. It could theoretically put to a good use, even if that rarely happens. Like companies could coordinate much better to use the available resources much better, to do what they purpose is - to serve the costumers. While it´s usually used to maximize the profits for the own company, as it´s mainly about the money - if it´s not really needed to make some service work, or if there aren´t law requirements for certain things.