Best magic user class

[GienekMaster]

Hello,

I don't have time due to work and family to test all the archetypes and classes, so I'd like to ask here: what is the best magic class in the game for the fun (I don't care for min-maxing)?

By fun I mean many spell slots and spell use per day. Because as far as I saw you need to choose and magic users have many slots and little use or little slots but much use. But the game like mixing classes so is there a mix allowing me casting many spells quite often?

[Razer]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Chronocide:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Erei:

Kineticist are not classifed as mage, but more "natural attack at range".

Technically, the kineticist uses "spell-like abilities" not natural attacks. The key difference being that the kineticist still needs to roll for spell penetration against targets with SR.

As for them being a magic user....I'd argue they count because conceptually someone looking for a magic user may consider anyone that slings fireballs around as a magic user.

Depends. Not sure how it works in Pathfinder. But Magic is classified as Arcane or Divine. So if it's not that... is it magic? I think "officially" it isn't magic if it's not one of the above.

[Chronocide]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Razer:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Chronocide:

Technically, the kineticist uses "spell-like abilities" not natural attacks. The key difference being that the kineticist still needs to roll for spell penetration against targets with SR.

As for them being a magic user....I'd argue they count because conceptually someone looking for a magic user may consider anyone that slings fireballs around as a magic user.

Depends. Not sure how it works in Pathfinder. But Magic is classified as Arcane or Divine. So if it's not that... is it magic? I think "officially" it isn't magic if it's not one of the above.

No, it really isn't how magic is divided. In pathfinder, there's one big book section for "magic spells" which covers magic spells, but doesn't define them as divine or arcane.

On a fluff level, divine spells are spells granted via a higher power who is channeling the spell through the divine caster, rather than the divine caster being the caster and using their own power. It's not about what they cast, it's about how they are cast.

The main mechanical difference is that Divine or Arcane covers how arcane spell failure applies to them. That's the difference between the spell types. You read your heavy armor, see that spell failure, it being "arcane spell failure" is because that value only applies to arcane casters.

If a cleric casts a traditionally arcane spell, it's a divine spell because the caster is a divine caster. The domains grant access to non-divine spells, as does the Lore Master prestige class, if looking to explore this one.

On a mechanical level, the divine spell list assumes that the wielder has higher BAB and wears armor, while the arcane one assumes terrible BAB and armorless - that's why arcane has Shield & Mage Armor, while cleric has Shield of Faith (adding a deflection bonus rather than a shield or armor bonus).

[Chronocide]

As for spell-like abilities, the typical example would be a racial ability, such as the tiefling or asimar once per day cast. That's a spell like ability, not a spell: it's not subject to arcane or divine casting, it's a spell-like ability. It's basically a spell, but they are mechanically a bit different and not considered spells.

Spell like abilities don't have verbal, somatic, focus, or material components, they don't work in anti-magic fields, and they have to roll vs SR if it applies.

The default DC is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Charisma modifier.

[Chronocide]

Anyway, regarding magic users, If the class relies on an effect that doesn't work in an Anti-Magic field, I'd classify them as a magic user. That seems like the clear cut difference.

[Erei]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Chronocide:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Erei:

Kineticist are not classifed as mage, but more "natural attack at range".

Technically, the kineticist uses "spell-like abilities" not natural attacks. The key difference being that the kineticist still needs to roll for spell penetration against targets with SR.

As for them being a magic user....I'd argue they count because conceptually someone looking for a magic user may consider anyone that slings fireballs around as a magic user.

Not all of it. Earth for example doesn't roll against SR. Some element are against SR others aren't. It depends if they are physical (a rock in the face is a rock in the face, in the end, there is little magic once the rock is flying), or more elemental (like a ball of fire).
And it's natural in the way it's neither arcane nor divine. It's innate and infinite. Like the manticore throw spikes.

[Chronocide]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Erei:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Chronocide:

Technically, the kineticist uses "spell-like abilities" not natural attacks. The key difference being that the kineticist still needs to roll for spell penetration against targets with SR.

As for them being a magic user....I'd argue they count because conceptually someone looking for a magic user may consider anyone that slings fireballs around as a magic user.

Not all of it. Earth for example doesn't roll against SR. Some element are against SR others aren't.

That is an exception specific to the kineticist's Kinetic Blast, which is specified in the description. It is still a spell like ability that, if not specifically excluded, would apply SR as normal.

And there are regular spells that specifically ignore SR, too. Typically, spells that deal only physical damage ignore SR.

For example, the spell "Tsunami" which deals bludgeon damage is not affected by SR either.
https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Tsunami

But it's still a spell.

[Erei]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Chronocide:

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Not all of it. Earth for example doesn't roll against SR. Some element are against SR others aren't.

That is an exception specific to the kineticist's Kinetic Blast, which is specified in the description. It is still a spell like ability that, if not specifically excluded, would apply SR as normal.

An exception shared by all physical blasts :D

Spell like imply the spell exist. Kineticist spell don't exist elsewhere. The tiefling spell like ability are pre-existing spells other can cast.
Neither a mage nor a divine caster can replicate a kineticist blast.

Blast aren't affected by arcane failure, nor need a deity to cast, nor a specific lineage. They are natural in a way that the kineticist can just throw blast naturally. It's part of their very being.

Another situation, kineticist blasts aren't affected by spell "buffs" like azata zippy magic. It used to be, but was nerfed.

Some behave like a touch spell, others like a martial attack. They are unique in their kind.

[Mugiwara]

Ok, Erai When I raised the question I was intending it as a question to the OP. You make some very good points as per the game rules. But try to see things from the OP's POV as per their post. The reason I left it as a question mark was that they don't seem too concerned with the specifics and just want to have fun. In that case Kineticist might fit the bill for what they were asking.

Anything else is a conversation for the hardcore Pathfinders.

[Chronocide]

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That is an exception specific to the kineticist's Kinetic Blast, which is specified in the description. It is still a spell like ability that, if not specifically excluded, would apply SR as normal.

An exception shared by all physical blasts :D

Spell like imply the spell exist. Kineticist spell don't exist elsewhere. The tiefling spell like ability are pre-existing spells other can cast.
Neither a mage nor a divine caster can replicate a kineticist blast.

Blast aren't affected by arcane failure, nor need a deity to cast, nor a specific lineage. They are natural in a way that the kineticist can just throw blast naturally. It's part of their very being.

Another situation, kineticist blasts aren't affected by spell "buffs" like azata zippy magic. It used to be, but was nerfed.

Some behave like a touch spell, others like a martial attack. They are unique in their kind.

in the pen & paper, it's called "kinetic blast (sp)" to note that it's a spell-like ability.

It still has the same exceptions and wording. They've just simplified it for this game because, as far as I know, this game has no anti-magic fields.

If you want to read more about it, here:
https://www.aonprd.com/UMR.aspx?ItemName=Spell-Like%20Abilities

[Chronocide]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mugiwara:

Ok, Erai When I raised the question I was intending it as a question to the OP. You make some very good points as per the game rules. But try to see things from the OP's POV as per their post. The reason I left it as a question mark was that they don't seem too concerned with the specifics and just want to have fun. In that case Kineticist might fit the bill for what they were asking.

Anything else is a conversation for the hardcore Pathfinders.

Agree. If they just want to shoot energy blasts around with their "wizard" then the kineticist is a good route, possibly the best route.

[Erei]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mugiwara:

Ok, Erai When I raised the question I was intending it as a question to the OP. You make some very good points as per the game rules. But try to see things from the OP's POV as per their post. The reason I left it as a question mark was that they don't seem too concerned with the specifics and just want to have fun. In that case Kineticist might fit the bill for what they were asking.

Anything else is a conversation for the hardcore Pathfinders.

Kineticist is quite complex compared to regular mage tho. Due to its weird nature, it's not as intuitive. Stuff like metamagic (non kineticist), for example, simply don't work on it. Or mythic spell buffs.
Kineticist also play poorly with nearly all mythic. Except for pros at the game that know about demon+deadly earth.

If the OP want to go into fireball spam wizard (IE blaster), then I'll suggest arcane trickster. It's fairly simple and rewarding enough. The only difficulty is to be sure you meet the pre-requisite.

IMO :
-BFT : best buffer
-Arcane Trickster simple out of the box blaster
-Shadowcaster if you have DLC for illusion. Otehrwise a lot of option works, like exploiter wizard or some variety of sorcerer
-Magic deciever if you want an "I win button" after a few level
-Sylvan sorcerer for strong mage with a pet you can mount
-ecclesitheurge for divine magic. Although it can't benefit as much than other divine caster for cold (no armor)
-oracle (base, dual cursed, seeker) is also a good choice for divine magic

Do note those are not always "the absolute best" as it's a little more complex than that, but all of those are quite good and workable without much struggle.

Then you may want to consider your mythic. An arcane caster will not perform as well as divine one if you play angel, meanwhile arcane will play better with lich. And if you go devil, a ray caster will get the most out of it.