My personal thoughts on the Gods of Pathfinder and why Pharasma is the only true deity of the main pantheon

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Personally I view most of the deities in this game as not truly gods. For one simple reason, that being they can die and die permenantly as Aroden has demonstrated and in order to in my opinion be considered a god you need to have transcended and mastered life and death, meaning you CANNOT die permanently. In this setting the only deity that seems to have done this apart from the Lovecraftian gods whom are a thing in the setting (And easily more powerful then ANY of the player worshiped dieties I mean if the Gods of Golarion really wanted to be rid of Rovagug they'd find a way to persuade Nyarlothotep to fight him or really not actually fight him just transport him to Azathoth who would then just kill Rovagug by simply eating him just saying the Lovecraftian gods are straight up WAY more poweful then any of the Gods of Pathfinder if we are considering them the same) is Pharasma the Goddess of Death and Birth, the one who both sends souls to Golarion and claims them along with judges them, she also is the only survivor of a previous multiverse that was destroyed and has full mastery over life and death by virtue of being the goddess of both.
My only gripes with Pharasma is that she is very detached to a person's well-being which I don't like in a deity and that her followers from my experiences tend to be utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a certain Half-Elf from Kingmaker comes to mind here.
But other then Pharasma and the Lovecraftian deities any of the other gods can die permenantly, they may have an extreme amount of power and have transcended many things BUT they are not true gods as a true deity can never die.

[smellibear]

The whole reason Zeus became a god is because his dad kept eating his siblings until his mom got pissed. Gods dying are part and parcel of the package. Your definition is skewed probably because of Christian notions of godhood

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by smellibear:

The whole reason Zeus became a god is because his dad kept eating his siblings until his mom got pissed. Gods dying are part and parcel of the package. Your definition is skewed probably because of Christian notions of godhood

Of course it is which it is because I know that's what a true divine is. Empirically, I've enough evidence thru my own experiances to be the case an it does influence my opinions here. But my personal beliefs aside I'd say its 100% a fair thing as in most mythologies dieties tend not to stay dead, look at Osirus who was killed by Set and came beck from death courtesy of his wife Isis for one example and in Greek mythology while Kronos may have eaten Zeus's siblings they were still alive after Zeus managed to get him to vomit them and the rock Rhea had given to him in place of Zeus, meaning that death seems to not be a thing that can happen to the Greek Gods hell Heracles who was a demi-god didn't stay dead after he killed himself on his funeral pyre as Zeus elevated him to full god status almost immediately after, then there is the fact that Kronos and the other Titans were locked away in Tarturus rather then killed and Typhon had Mount Etna dropped on top of him as a prison, or the fact that Prometheus could survive having his liver pulled out and eaten every single day for it to grow back to be eaten again until the aforementioned Heracles killed said eagle. We can even go to Eastern myth like how Ganesha the elephant headed god had his head taken off by his father Shiva after birth something that would kill a human being instead Shiva simply replaced his head with that of an Elephant and Ganesha was rather chill about it. the fact In general most religions that have deities tend to state that a requirement for godhood is being unable to die permanently. Which is what is one of the core elements that distinguish mortals from gods, Gods have powers beyond that of mortals but a core one that is near universal across so many cultures is the ability to avoid being killed for good meaning that its one of the main requirements for divine status.
So what are the Pathfinder gods by this standards, exceptionally powerful beings with divine powers but not fully divine as they are capable of being destroyed they can still die and they still have some of the core failings that they had as mortals. The exception to this are the dieties that aren't native to Golarion and come from elsewhere, look you are going say what you will but there is a MAJOR power gap between the Gods of Pathfinder and the Gods of Lovecraft which are a thing in the Pathfinder universe, all of the Gods of Lovecraft are beyond death, Cthulhu being the one who comes most to mind here, they are also on an entirely differant power level as Azathoth one of the strongest is kept asleep by magic music that creates the laws of physics in the universe as a side-effect of said music, look if the laws of the universe itself are basically needed to keep him from destroying everything then Azathoth is extremely powerful. I mean seriously they are a thing in the setting and therefore I am 100% within my logic to include them here.

[Kinoringan]

Did you check the secret ending? Pharasma is pretty powerless herself. She commented that if the newly ascended demigod you (KC) and newly ascended demigod areelu combine could overcome her (or something along that line). Which gives me the impression that she can be defeated and die.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by Kinoringan:

Did you check the secret ending? Pharasma is pretty powerless herself. She commented that if the newly ascended demigod you (KC) and newly ascended demigod areelu combine could overcome her (or something along that line). Which gives me the impression that she can be defeated and die.

Which if that is the case then by definition its likely the reason that Iomedae and Pharasma are not in favor of the player following the Secret Ending is because Areelu and the Player have found a way to achieve true godhood meaning that they could in theory command the entire Pantheon. Which further supports my claim that they aren't true gods as they can die. I mean if this is the case the only gods that are actual gods by the standard of having conquered death and having all the powers of creation are the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones of Lovecraft that are a thing in Pathfinder.

[faolanthehedgehog]

I mean... your opinion as to what constitutes a god doesn't really have any bearing on what is considered a god by Pathfinder standards, which boils down to:
- being immortal (biologically immune to the ravages of time)
- having a religious following
- being able to grant divine spells to worshipers
- having a divine realm over which they basically have absolute control

Besides, if we were to use your definition of a god being some unkillable, omnipotent being, then that would lead to a paradox that raises the question; can such a god kill themselves? What yields first; the immovable object or the unstoppable force?

[hilburnashua]

"Of course it is which it is because I know that's what a true divine is"

Not sure if that is a troll or just arrogence beyond the ken of mortals.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by faolanthehedgehog:

I mean... your opinion as to what constitutes a god doesn't really have any bearing on what is considered a god by Pathfinder standards, which boils down to:
- being immortal (biologically immune to the ravages of time)
- having a religious following
- being able to grant divine spells to worshipers
- having a divine realm over which they basically have absolute control

Besides, if we were to use your definition of a god being some unkillable, omnipotent being, then that would lead to a paradox that raises the question; can such a god kill themselves? What yields first; the immovable object or the unstoppable force?

Neither as both cancel out, it really does not raise a paradox, yeah it may be my opinion but it also informs my decisions from a role-playing standards that being unless it comes from the Outer Gods anything from the Divines has to be taken with a degree of salt. I will note that the game is way more enjoyable if you play as a character who is devout rather then a zealot to a specific diety there is a major differince between the two they are not synomous, a devout person firmly believes in their faith is willing to die before denying it they in general will stand for their beliefs but won't try and impose them on others simply state what they believe and base their choices on them, a zealot on the otherhand believes that their faith is superior to any other and will try to spread their faith to others often by violence.
The main reason I have with the deities in this setting is that they give their powers to zealots as well as devout followers and don't do enough to reign them in from causing harm and in the case of some deities like Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon outright encourage their followers to murder others. For me there is a distinction between the deities in this setting that are worthy of worship and those that aren't and those that aren't are those whose followers tend to be the biggest pricks. Point being I'd give them a lot more leeway on their divine status if they checked who they were giving power to, Iomedae if she followed my stance would give power to Seelah and Galfrey who are devout worshipers but aren't out to force their beliefs on others and not give power to the likes of Halrun who are hard-line zealots that kill innocents as well as the wicked, one of her core doctrines is to protect the innocent well if you want to do that don't give your divine spells to people that will use them to hurt the innocent.
Basically true deities will withhold their power from mortals who misuse them and the Gods of Golarion for the most part don't do this enough; I have more respect for those that do then those that don't. I'm not going to disagree with Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon rewarding their followers for committing evil deeds as their worshipers are primarilly evil people, but I'd like for the good deities to NOT give powers to those who are actively abusing them to cause harm. If evil people want to do evil things and be rewarded for their evil deeds then they can worship Asmodeus or Zon-Kuthon or Norgarbar or any of the evil aligned deities that praise evil actions. I would have a LOT more respect for the alignment system it wasn't so damn contradictory and would have more respect for the divines in this setting if they were a bit more proactive, I'm not advocating for direct in person involvement but I would like them to be more clear with their followers.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

"Of course it is which it is because I know that's what a true divine is"

Not sure if that is a troll or just arrogence beyond the ken of mortals.

Neither its personal experience I've had events in my life that have shaped me to believe things from a specific way and have had evidence thru my life to back it up so I know that it is the case because I have had experiences that prove it to be as such. Point being a person is not wrong to believe something truth or not they are entitled to hold that opinion and that is my personal opinion shaped by life events. Is it arrogant to state what I believe to be the truth due to personal experiance? If so then any human being is arrogant for stating anything

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

"Of course it is which it is because I know that's what a true divine is"

Not sure if that is a troll or just arrogence beyond the ken of mortals.

Neither its personal experience I've had events in my life that have shaped me to believe things from a specific way and have had evidence thru my life to back it up so I know that it is the case because I have had experiences that prove it to be as such. Point being a person is not wrong to believe something truth or not they are entitled to hold that opinion and that is my personal opinion shaped by life events. Is it arrogant to state what I believe to be the truth due to personal experiance? If so then any human being is arrogant for stating anything

So, what did you "personally" experience to prove that gods, or those claiming to be gods, are immortal beyond all means of removal from existance?

[hilburnashua]

And how do you know that "God" is really a god by your definition since you have never had a chance to observe it in some form of mortal kombat?

[Nosferatu]

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Personally I view most of the deities in this game as not truly gods. For one simple reason, that being they can die and die permenantly as Aroden has demonstrated and in order to in my opinion be considered a god you need to have transcended and mastered life and death, meaning you CANNOT die permanently. In this setting the only deity that seems to have done this apart from the Lovecraftian gods whom are a thing in the setting (And easily more powerful then ANY of the player worshiped dieties I mean if the Gods of Golarion really wanted to be rid of Rovagug they'd find a way to persuade Nyarlothotep to fight him or really not actually fight him just transport him to Azathoth who would then just kill Rovagug by simply eating him just saying the Lovecraftian gods are straight up WAY more poweful then any of the Gods of Pathfinder if we are considering them the same) is Pharasma the Goddess of Death and Birth, the one who both sends souls to Golarion and claims them along with judges them, she also is the only survivor of a previous multiverse that was destroyed and has full mastery over life and death by virtue of being the goddess of both.
My only gripes with Pharasma is that she is very detached to a person's well-being which I don't like in a deity and that her followers from my experiences tend to be utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a certain Half-Elf from Kingmaker comes to mind here.
But other then Pharasma and the Lovecraftian deities any of the other gods can die permenantly, they may have an extreme amount of power and have transcended many things BUT they are not true gods as a true deity can never die.

There's not much more to the definition of god than being a powerful entity people worship, really. Pathfinder god are definitely gods, it's not really a matter of opinion, and while I respect your IRL religious views, they aren't really relevant to either the general definition of a god or to what counts as a god in a fantasy setting.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

And how do you know that "God" is really a god by your definition since you have never had a chance to observe it in some form of mortal kombat?

Forget it its obvious you think I'm crazy and can we discuss the actual topic as we are getting grossly off topic and its really stupid. We're talking Pathfinder here my personal life is not for internet gossip and I honestly don't care what you think about my own beliefs I saw what I saw and that's it, also it does not discredit my argument, as again a majority of cultures and faiths will agree for the most part that a true divine being is able to cheat death and has power over it. For me that is enough of a standard to expect from a deity in fantasy setting where they proven to exist flat out. Also it does not discredit my stance that they need to be more careful with who they are handing out spells to, at least the good aligned deities; like I said Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon are evil so I expect them to give powers to evil scummy people. but for good deities I have a much higher standards.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

Originally posted by Nosferatu:

Originally posted by jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi:

Personally I view most of the deities in this game as not truly gods. For one simple reason, that being they can die and die permenantly as Aroden has demonstrated and in order to in my opinion be considered a god you need to have transcended and mastered life and death, meaning you CANNOT die permanently. In this setting the only deity that seems to have done this apart from the Lovecraftian gods whom are a thing in the setting (And easily more powerful then ANY of the player worshiped dieties I mean if the Gods of Golarion really wanted to be rid of Rovagug they'd find a way to persuade Nyarlothotep to fight him or really not actually fight him just transport him to Azathoth who would then just kill Rovagug by simply eating him just saying the Lovecraftian gods are straight up WAY more poweful then any of the Gods of Pathfinder if we are considering them the same) is Pharasma the Goddess of Death and Birth, the one who both sends souls to Golarion and claims them along with judges them, she also is the only survivor of a previous multiverse that was destroyed and has full mastery over life and death by virtue of being the goddess of both.
My only gripes with Pharasma is that she is very detached to a person's well-being which I don't like in a deity and that her followers from my experiences tend to be utter ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a certain Half-Elf from Kingmaker comes to mind here.
But other then Pharasma and the Lovecraftian deities any of the other gods can die permenantly, they may have an extreme amount of power and have transcended many things BUT they are not true gods as a true deity can never die.

There's not much more to the definition of god than being a powerful entity people worship, really. Pathfinder god are definitely gods, it's not really a matter of opinion, and while I respect your IRL religious views, they aren't really relevant to either the general definition of a god or to what counts as a god in a fantasy setting.

The issue being is that we have deities that in the setting that can cheat death and tick all the other boxes, the Outer Gods of Lovecraft which really since they are in the setting it basically renders the tradition Golarion Gods to lesser divine status, but seriously I stand by my earlier assertion that if the gods of Golarion wanted to be rid of Rovagug for good instead of trapping him they'd have found a way to get him to run into Nyarlathotep and either Nyarlathotep destroys Rovagug out right or he teleports him to Azathoth and Azathoth eats him. Point being that when you throw the Outer Gods and Great Old ones into the setting anyone else is going to look VERY weak and less like a true god by comparison, point being best off worshiping the King in Yellow instead of Asmodeus as an evil character as Asmodeus is a push over by comparison. And while I'm not the most knowledgeable about Pathfinder I know enough about Lovecraft's gods to tell you for sure by comparison the Gods of Golarian are pretenders in terms of power which makes Strange Aeons a bit absurd how by the end of it your party can defeat Hastur the King in Yellow and really defeating the King in Yellow in order to pull that off either he isn't going all out or your party is more powerful then most of Golarion's pantheon as Hastur would kick the ass of any of them individually.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

And I stand by my assertion they need to do better when it comes to handling their followers definately keep powers out of the hands of people that are going to do lasting harm especially if it will then give the rest of your religion a bad name. Which is why Pharasma and Iomedae are not allowed to have military orders in my Kingdom of Lornflame that I founded in Kingmaker because I met members of their faith that clearly demonstrated that zealots and weapons do NOT mix. Also no inquisitors or Hell Knights flat out being an Inquisitor or Hell Knight in Lornflame without permits under penalty of death if you are either then you are liable to lose your head, if you try and kidnap my people against their will that will lose your head too, if you are worshiper of Zon-Kuthon or Asmodeus or any god that wants to worship their faith in a violent manner that involves murder or other high crimes head chopped off. Religious freedom is allowed in Lornflame with the exception that you CANNOT kill people of other religious faiths murder is still a crime punishable by death at the end of the day and claiming that I was doing i because they were of another faith is not a defense in court its an admitance of guilt.
Point of all this I hate Religious Zealots and Demons equally: I'm like Daeran I hate Puritans and Demons with equal measure but hate the later a LOT more for so many reason.