Spell management for a new player?

[kocur4d]

I am new to the game and new to concept of needing to prepare spells. All of the games I played before had mana and you could cast as much as you want.

I am plying on normal and got companion, for example Camellia, on level 4. She have 16 L1, 18 L2 spells and just 4 L1 and 3 L2 slots.

Most of those spells are extremely situational. I could prep "general" ones that are most likely to be good to cast. But in general I am not casting them at all since I always try to keep them for a better occasion :/ Additionally if I just focus on those spells with most average chance to cast I will not use any other - which is not ideal.

I am still pretty early in the game I just did the defence of the inn plus couple more sites.
I actually see more benefits in focusing on full melee and range characters ignoring the spellcasting ones which is a bit of a shame.

Please teach me and help me change my mentality.

Will it be more apparent when and what I will need as game progresses?
How often do you take rest?
How often do you use those more situational spells?
Would it be beneficial to bump up difficulty since I got hang of the basics?

[Swordman_Red]

Originally posted by kocur4d:

Will it be more apparent when and what I will need as game progresses?
How often do you take rest?
How often do you use those more situational spells?
Would it be beneficial to bump up difficulty since I got hang of the basics?

Indeed, preparing general and more immediately useful spells first and learning what specific ones you would also like on the list later is a sound strategy. Use them every time you consider a fight dangerous.
1)Yes. You will see enemies using some spells, that you will find extremely useful yourself. Or you'll get totally destroyed by some hostile ability or magic and learn a specific defence spell against it. Opponent's stat growth will eventually force you to buff your weapon specialists all the time.
2)i'm trying to rest as few times as possible. Generally about one or two times per big location. I always rest upon reaching exhaustion with all characters(more for roleplay reason, than anything else), i do not immediately camp upon expending every spell/slot in the party, and try to push just up to a point where party is a bit beaten up and proceeding further is dangerous.
3)Depends on what you find situational. Otherwise quite frequently.
4)With those questions, no it wouldn't, unless you like to learn through hard lessons.

[Noin Trongaz]

Originally posted by kocur4d:

I am new to the game and new to concept of needing to prepare spells. All of the games I played before had mana and you could cast as much as you want.

I am plying on normal and got companion, for example Camellia, on level 4. She have 16 L1, 18 L2 spells and just 4 L1 and 3 L2 slots.

Most of those spells are extremely situational. I could prep "general" ones that are most likely to be good to cast. But in general I am not casting them at all since I always try to keep them for a better occasion :/ Additionally if I just focus on those spells with most average chance to cast I will not use any other - which is not ideal.

I am still pretty early in the game I just did the defence of the inn plus couple more sites.
I actually see more benefits in focusing on full melee and range characters ignoring the spellcasting ones which is a bit of a shame.

Please teach me and help me change my mentality.

Will it be more apparent when and what I will need as game progresses?
How often do you take rest?
How often do you use those more situational spells?
Would it be beneficial to bump up difficulty since I got hang of the basics?

Many situations in the game will require you to use spells. It takes time to learn though!
Many fights which otherwise would be impossible can become beatable by using a couple of strategic spells.
An example: if you find yourself in a situation where your party gets feared by a spell or an enemy they will simply run around being beaten to death. A cleric level 1 spell can cleanse fear from the whole party.
Example 2: an enemy has too much armour and you can't hit him at all! Well, in this case you can use buffs which increase your attack (bless etc) or you can use spells like Ray of Fire (lvl2 mage) which goes against Touch AC, which is often very low.
Example 3: there is a big fight and you are getting swarmed by a bunch of weaker enemies! You can use AoE CC spells (like rooting them in place) or simply nuke them with a fireball.
Example 4: a dragon is using a fire breath and nukes your whole party! Well, clerics/druids/oracles (and others) have spells which makes you protected or even completely immune to a particular damage type.

In general, spells are extremely powerful and there are some things that non-casters can't do: fighting many enemies at once, crowd control, utility. Your casters can also function as a force multiplier for your powerful melee and range characters.

In general, if you can't beat a fight, then look at what spells are in your possession!

[Ivas]

I prefer to prepare spells that I SURELY WILL use. Like enlarge person. But once in a while, I encounter a spell/effect/ability that completely wrecks my party. After that, I go through my spell lists and try to find a countermeasure. And once I find it, I would never not prepare it. Even if I'll use it 2 more times throughout the rest of the game I want to be prepared. Remove Fear and Death Ward are good examples of such spells

Edit: To be fair, Camelia's spell list is... strange, in my opinion.

[reidj062]

Originally posted by kocur4d:

I am new to the game and new to concept of needing to prepare spells. All of the games I played before had mana and you could cast as much as you want.

I am plying on normal and got companion, for example Camellia, on level 4. She have 16 L1, 18 L2 spells and just 4 L1 and 3 L2 slots.

Most of those spells are extremely situational. I could prep "general" ones that are most likely to be good to cast. But in general I am not casting them at all since I always try to keep them for a better occasion :/ Additionally if I just focus on those spells with most average chance to cast I will not use any other - which is not ideal.

I am still pretty early in the game I just did the defence of the inn plus couple more sites.
I actually see more benefits in focusing on full melee and range characters ignoring the spellcasting ones which is a bit of a shame.

Please teach me and help me change my mentality.

Will it be more apparent when and what I will need as game progresses?
How often do you take rest?
How often do you use those more situational spells?
Would it be beneficial to bump up difficulty since I got hang of the basics?

If you play the game multiple times, it becomes more apparent when you will need to prepare specific spells.

In answer to your first question: No. Not what you wanted to hear, but it's the truth.
How often do I rest? Probably never more than four times per map, and that's on big maps. You can rest more in the early part of the first act, before the corruption mechanic is fully unleashed upon you. If you really need more rests, check out the combat relief mod.

I mostly prep for spells I'll use often, for example, cure spells or staple damage spells like fireball or lightning bolt. Some spells are so devastating if you don't have the proper counterspell, though, that I always prepare them unless I know they won't be necessary.

Some of the best spells to keep on hand are: bless (at least until you get prayer), remove blindness, remove paralysis, delay poison, communal, and haste. And never forget mage armor and shield. Spells that also provide fire resistance are a good bet, and communal stoneskin, when you gain access to that.

Just a handful of what's useful.

[Triple G]

Best spells to keep on hand are delay poison, communal, grease, poison cloud, sirocco and haste.

Mage armor and shield, and many other buffs depend on Your equipment, and what the other characters provide, as these don´t stack. I´d go for buff spells which last long - and it can´t harm to have protection vs elements and alignment for everyone, see invisible and later the better one (true seeing or something) for everybody - and some touch attack spells for high armor targets. Of course something which locks single entities in place like ice prison. Magic missile isn´t half bad either as lvl 1 spell. Bless and prayer are nice if You have nothing else to do in a round, or cast bless before a battle to maximize everything (if needed, because it doesn´t stack either) - else they only add 1 point, or 5% more chance to hit or to save something. These are probably worth it if they could be casted as swift action, but imho any other thing which lasts a standard action is better than casting these, like You wouldn´t cast bane only because the enemy casted bless - which is the same thing in green.

Spells which make them helpless will allow You to do the coup de grace, basically one shooting the people no matter the health. (Grease would be such a one, or slumber as the hex)

Also if You´re into magic You should look at the metamagic feats, which can buff the spells in several ways. So certain buffs may last longer, or other spells would have more effect, while also increasing their spell level, which makes them harder to resist. Having a buff last 30 minutes instead of 15 is a difference and can prevent casting it another time. The buffs which only last some rounds are usually stronger, but also situational (while haste is always good). And something like true strike is only worth it if You can cast it as swift action imho. But getting some other feats first is the better idea, like spell penetration, or that You can fire into melee without the debuff, or concentration if You´re a melee caster.

Else there are apparently only few time limits in the game, so resting shouldn´t be a problem. Of course You don´t need to waste all the spells either. Usually i rest when i ran out of healing spells and when i am low on health. Also later in the game it´s not much of an issue, because then You have way more spells. Like in most RPGs the start is sometimes hard, and near the end You´re OP and have more of everything than You would need. I haven´t played this game to the end so far, but i´d be surprised if it wouldn´t be the case...

[KocLobster]

I don't care what anyone says. Shamans (Camellia's class) are weird. Keep that in mind. You've already got lots of answers so I'll keep it short:

• Don't be afraid to increase/decrease the difficulty as often as you want
  
  
• Don't be afraid to rest as much as you want/need. Don't be afraid to blow through "preparation" spells that you cast when you enter a new area, and don't be afraid to use a bunch of offensive spells in the middle of a combat. There's only like maybe one big reason, a very difficult and rare Steam achievement, that would encourage you to limit how often you rest. I wouldn't expect you to be concerned about that on your 1st playthrough.
  
  
• Some classes, like shamans, get a massive list of spells. Lots of those spells are situational or just not very good. You don't need to necessarily always prepare for everything, or diversify. Use what works and stick with it until you have a reason to switch it up.

Originally posted by Triple G:

Spells which make them helpless will allow You to do the coup de grace, basically one shooting the people no matter the health. (Grease would be such a one, or slumber as the hex)

Grease, trip, or otherwise making someone prone doesn't give them the hidden "helpless" condition and does not make them susceptible to coup de grace fyi. Slumber/sleep does.

[Pappus]

One tip you have the ability on many casters to recharge on spell of your chosing via object bound. THat is good enough for situational stuff like curing a disease. Just slot the spell you need in and prepare it immediately using your one daily refresh.

[Synclaere]

Originally posted by kocur4d:

Will it be more apparent when and what I will need as game progresses?
How often do you take rest?
How often do you use those more situational spells?
Would it be beneficial to bump up difficulty since I got hang of the basics?

When you unlock more of the roster, you'll figure out who your main team will be. That being said, early game crowd control like with pits and grease is king so I usually had nenio and camellia on my team.

Act 1 is the only time when you're really hard pressed on time and making sure you get the most efficient use of your resources with potions and spells. Rest of the game, for the most part you can go on your leisure unless the game repeatedly tells you to get things done quick. I usually try to use most of my resources before needing to take a rest or if more than 1 person is at death's door. So basically once or twice on big maps. Last Stand is practically a required choice for your mythic paths.

Generally you'll want to have access to buffs like prayer/bless/haste, and damage spells like fireball and scorching ray. Make sure you have a couple ways of being able to have attacks that target touch AC, they make big bosses trivial especially if you are a Magus with Dimension Strike. Early game you can get away with just using bless, shooting at range to start a surprise round and using difficult terrain spells to slow people down.

Just stick with normal, the rules are bent in the player's favor compared to the tabletop.

[Burdy333]

haste will turn everyone into superheroes. It will make your melee guys hit more. Use it often. I usually make scrolls of haste when i sleep so i can have some backup. grease used correctly can be unbelievably effective at disabling large groups and remember that you can dismiss it (with the person who cast it) if its problematic for your party.

[Triple G]

Originally posted by cookie!:

Grease, trip, or otherwise making someone prone doesn't give them the hidden "helpless" condition and does not make them susceptible to coup de grace fyi. Slumber/sleep does.

Hmm. My bad, haven´t used grease or trip in this game so far. Thought it was always when they lie on the floor. So yes - thanks for the correction.

[kocur4d]

Thank you very much for all of the info! Very helpful.

[Drake]

About coup de grace. It's not an automatic oneshot. It's an automatic crit that can oneshot if the enemy fails the kill check. So always use a char that has a high attack bonus to use it (don't waste it with a wizard just becasue he's close to the enemy).

That said, don't overlook grease just becasue it doesn't givethe helpless condition. Making a full melee attack on a prone enemy is usually enough to kill it (the AC debuff is real), and having free attack of opportunities is always welcomed.

About the spell list.

Normal Divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, shamans, paladins, rangers), don't need to learn spells, they always get the full list for their class, and they just need to prepare what they need when they rest.

It's not like other classes that need to learn spells when they level up (or from scrolls).

This adds a little versatility to them (which is good because they have mostly support spells, so it's preferable to switch depending on the area, instead of having limited spells and not being able to overcome a fight because you didn't learn the right counter).

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Drake:

About coup de grace. It's not an automatic oneshot. It's an automatic crit that can oneshot if the enemy fails the kill check. So always use a char that has a high attack bonus to use it (don't waste it with a wizard just becasue he's close to the enemy).

I have played Kingmaker for like 1k+ hours and this for a bit now - and i never saw that coup de grace failed or wouldn´t kill the opponent. I don´t use it often though, as i think it´s rather cheesy. I guess the chance for failing is really low.

And yes - grease is still useful - even more so when You can have it selective, so Your own guys don´t fall over all the time. :o)

I just looked it up and the fortitude save throw is really high. Like 10 + damage dealt, which is rather high on a critical hit. While i´m unsure if sleeping characters don´t auto-fail all save throws.

So one should use a character with high damage. Critical x3 + sneak damage will probably make it sure that nobody could pass this safe throw. If it´s even made. Attack bonus doesn´t matter when it´s an automatic hit.

[Noin Trongaz]

Originally posted by Burdy333:

haste will turn everyone into superheroes. It will make your melee guys hit more. Use it often. I usually make scrolls of haste when i sleep so i can have some backup. grease used correctly can be unbelievably effective at disabling large groups and remember that you can dismiss it (with the person who cast it) if its problematic for your party.

Haste is so strong that my last runs I don't use it, I made home rules for myself not to use certain things and haste is number 1... Greeze is number two.

[Burdy333]

Originally posted by A Peasant Mobster:

Originally posted by Burdy333:

haste will turn everyone into superheroes. It will make your melee guys hit more. Use it often. I usually make scrolls of haste when i sleep so i can have some backup. grease used correctly can be unbelievably effective at disabling large groups and remember that you can dismiss it (with the person who cast it) if its problematic for your party.

Haste is so strong that my last runs I don't use it, I made home rules for myself not to use certain things and haste is number 1... Greeze is number two.

haha Yeah I need em :D