Did they fix "Allied spellcaster" yet?

[mbradtke]

Topic, would like to know (-:
Unlikely it is supposed to stack, because teamwork feats dont work like this, you get a fixed bonus, as described in the tooltip, no matter how many have the feat, always the same bonus, with minor changes maybe, like for shielded caster.
I got very weird results by searching the BUG in the forum, some even state it is totally broken now and may even give negative spell pen. bonus....

[RandomDude2018]

Originally posted by Triple G:

Originally posted by RandomDude2018:

There's nothing to fix. Not for you to decide if it should stack or not.

It works exactly as described.

I've played the game since the release and never had any problems with it.

It does not. It says You get +2, and not +2 for each ally. Like all the other teamwork feats. Else You´d have like +24 attack if You surround one guy with 6 people and outflank.

If it stacks - i guess monster tactician is nice, as he gives his teamwork feats to all his summons for basically infinite spell penetration. I don´t think that it is how it should work, while +2 is not really worth much imho, and outflank is probably still the single best teamwork feat because of +4 to attack and the attacks of opportunity - for everyone to get if You don´t have some special feat line...

Outflank is capped at +4. Shake It Off also. Some of the others too. Allied spellcaster is NOT.

No one forces you to use it on all allies. Nothing gamebreaking here.

[Soul]

Originally posted by RandomDude2018:

Originally posted by Triple G:

It does not. It says You get +2, and not +2 for each ally. Like all the other teamwork feats. Else You´d have like +24 attack if You surround one guy with 6 people and outflank.

If it stacks - i guess monster tactician is nice, as he gives his teamwork feats to all his summons for basically infinite spell penetration. I don´t think that it is how it should work, while +2 is not really worth much imho, and outflank is probably still the single best teamwork feat because of +4 to attack and the attacks of opportunity - for everyone to get if You don´t have some special feat line...

Outflank is capped. Shake It Off also. The rest in theory is NOT.

No one forces you to use it on all allies. Nothing gamebreaking here.

things like outflank are way more potent than allied spellcaster anyways..... I mean lets take Azata friendship bond for example.... with outflank and allied spellcaster teamwork feats....

and lets say you cast elemental swarm (maximized with rod) from elemental bloodline.... with 7 party members (counting Aivu) + 13 elementals.... thats 20 party members so far.... sure allied spellcaster would greatly benefit way it is now with lowering spell resistance to everyone... but the real thing that would shine would be outflank.... with one caster in back and 19 other characters swarming a big bad boss.... outflank would be proccing left and right provoking tons of extra attacks for free...

[mbradtke]

Originally posted by RandomDude2018:

Originally posted by Triple G:

It does not. It says You get +2, and not +2 for each ally. Like all the other teamwork feats. Else You´d have like +24 attack if You surround one guy with 6 people and outflank.

If it stacks - i guess monster tactician is nice, as he gives his teamwork feats to all his summons for basically infinite spell penetration. I don´t think that it is how it should work, while +2 is not really worth much imho, and outflank is probably still the single best teamwork feat because of +4 to attack and the attacks of opportunity - for everyone to get if You don´t have some special feat line...

Outflank is capped at +4. Shake It Off also. Some of the others too. Allied spellcaster is NOT.

No one forces you to use it on all allies. Nothing gamebreaking here.

from pathfinder kingmaker wiki:

With the aid of an ally, you are skilled at piercing the protections of other creatures with your spells.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +2 bonus on concentration checks and level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

Notes
Although it probably shouldn't, the spell penetration bonus stacks with multiple allies. E.g. a Monster Tactician using Summon Monster and Summon Tactics gets +2 spell penetration for each ally.

one has to be rly desperate to belive that allied spellcaster is supposed to stack, the tooltip is pretty clear, u get +2 if u forfil the condition, not +2 for every ally, it would have to be stated there if so, it is not. if that would be the case you could also argue shield wall would stack, it does not so no. also there is a teamwork feat that really stack for a max +4 on saving throws and it is said so th ein tooltip, it is not with allied spellcaster and finally, if that didnt convince you yet, you should only get +2 if 2 people have the feat, as it is also stated in the tooltip but you get +4, so that is already wrong, it doesnt make any sense and is obviously bugged but dont worry, just trivalize any SR enemies by using it, it is not like enemies have SR for a reason, to make em harder to kill you know but whatever makes you happy (:

[mbradtke]

i just did some research because i find this topic interesting and will leave my data here, just in case anyone is interested in this...

so it seems allied spellcaster works different in the game than indicated in the standard rules, it is stronger in his PnP setting, it stacked in kingmaker already and so it does in wraith right now, some belive it should work like this but i think that is mostly because they dont like spell pen. and want to take adavantage of it, for whatever reason but many others also think it is bugged and should not stack because it behaves very strange and the wording doesnt support this, i think so too myself....

also they way it work is that it, once it triggers by 2 people or any other "teamwork activated" effect, is that it affects everyone on the field, maybe even enemies (not sure), people say "globally" to this, it means that it has no range limit, the tabletweak mod actually fixes this, so i have heard, making it much more balanced at last....

i dont think it is so problematic that it gives 4 spell pen and 4 concentration( i guess?)
for 2 people that have it but it is problematic that everyone, even people that dont have the feat will benefit from it, i think this is what people refer to when they say it works "globally", pls correct me if i am wrong, from my research this is what i figured out, you only need 2 people taht activate it and then everyone will get the bonus, maybe even enemies, they do not even need the feat, each additional person that triggers the feat will add another +2 on named checks to everyone, even martials like warrior with the feat, that can not cast spells(this should not work in my opinion, aside from special cases maybe) i think this is really weird and could need some attention

and lastly... they fixed this in 2021 it seems but reverted the change for unknown reasons, so it seems possible... what i dont understand is why not just fix it like tabletobtweaks does, so it doesnt affect everyone because that is just not balanced at all (free feats for everyone) and change the effect, so it is still useful without stacking, i do not even belive that stacking is the biggest problem, intended or not but the fact that you can take it on 2 people and everyone will get +4 spell pen and 4 concentration? is just stupid....
at last make sure that it only affects friendly members that are adjacent to each other, so the stacking problem will not be so much of an issue anymore, and big numbers from stacking it will also decrease

[fox5s]

Honestly, it's unnecessary. Take the two Spell Pen feats and Mythic Spell pen if you are having trouble. I've seen MjKorz argue (with the math to back it up) that none of them are necessary even in Unfair due to the amount of stacking items that adjust Spell Pen.

The only use-case I can think of for Allied Spellcasting is during the very early game before MR2 when your levels, MR, and gear are lacking.

[pete3great]

I had my allied spell caster fixed, but I think it was a mistake because now I want puppies.

[Soul]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Honestly, it's unnecessary. Take the two Spell Pen feats and Mythic Spell pen if you are having trouble. I've seen MjKorz argue (with the math to back it up) that none of them are necessary even in Unfair due to the amount of stacking items that adjust Spell Pen.

The only use-case I can think of for Allied Spellcasting is during the very early game before MR2 when your levels, MR, and gear are lacking.

the problem I think with that though... is the gear route to avoid spell pen and mythic spell pen feats... there are only a certain amount that you could reach gear alone wise...

like you could have all the best spell pen gear on a spellcaster and it would work fine.... but that means if you run with more than one.... your other spellcasters are not gonna have much option gear wise to be equal to the main one...

i'd say if they did "fix" it... they should add more spell penetration gear to the game to help compensate....

otherwise I dont really see how its a issue really.... I mean outflank I think is the more overpowered teamwork feat.... having that on a bunch of melee means a lot more direct damage potential..... having spellcasters with allied spellcasting on the other hand is nowhere near as strong... I mean spellcasting is limited afterall... and you still have DC's, touch AC, and resistances to have to deal with...

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Soul:

the problem I think with that though... is the gear route to avoid spell pen and mythic spell pen feats... there are only a certain amount that you could reach gear alone wise...

like you could have all the best spell pen gear on a spellcaster and it would work fine.... but that means if you run with more than one.... your other spellcasters are not gonna have much option gear wise to be equal to the main one...

Agreed. There is enough gear to outfit ONE of your casters well enough to overcome any Spell Resistance in the game even on a roll of a 2 even on Unfair without investing in any Spell Penetration feats.

You are also correct that there is not enough to outfit a second caster with enough Spell Penetration gear. Any further casters would need to rely on the Spell Pen feats and Mythic Feat. Or split the gear and have them both use the feats.

That should be plenty. There's not really room for more in your party of six. You maybe have room in the party for one DC caster and one damage caster. If you have more they should be dedicated to buffing and other abilities.

Camellia is actually a good example. Assuming you keep her nearly pure Shaman, her role is buffing before combat and hexing/off-tanking/summoning in combat. None of that needs Spell Pen. Sosiel is similar.

[Soul]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Soul:

the problem I think with that though... is the gear route to avoid spell pen and mythic spell pen feats... there are only a certain amount that you could reach gear alone wise...

like you could have all the best spell pen gear on a spellcaster and it would work fine.... but that means if you run with more than one.... your other spellcasters are not gonna have much option gear wise to be equal to the main one...

Agreed. There is enough gear to outfit ONE of your casters well enough to overcome any Spell Resistance in the game even on a roll of a 2 even on Unfair without investing in any Spell Penetration feats.

You are also correct that there is not enough to outfit a second caster with enough Spell Penetration gear. Any further casters would need to rely on the Spell Pen feats and Mythic Feat. Or split the gear and have them both use the feats.

That should be plenty. There's not really room for more in your party of six. You maybe have room in the party for one DC caster and one damage caster. If you have more they should be dedicated to buffing and other abilities.

Camellia is actually a good example. Assuming you keep her nearly pure Shaman, her role is buffing before combat and hexing/off-tanking/summoning in combat. None of that needs Spell Pen. Sosiel is similar.

true while you can only have a party of six... it still makes equipping them a issue.... I mean base game companions we get how many spellcasters out the gate?.... Camellia, Daeran, Ember, Nenio... not really counting Seelah or Aru cause only low level spellcasting.... but possibly Sosiel if you used his attack spells.... so kinda 5 members that start off with spellcasting classes... not to mention if your main is a spellcaster thats 6....

now while your playing the game you can only have 6 party members of course... and I usually leave 1 slot dedicated to 6th member that swaps for other members personal quests.... and my normal party composition usually looks like... my sorcerer, Nenio, Aru, Seelah with horse tank, Sosiel with horse tank, and finally Ulbrig that swaps... that leaves my sorcerer with the good stuff and Nenio with the hand-me-downs pretty much.... but if I wanna swap Ulbrig for say Ember or Daeran.... they have even less options for gear to help make them viable without spell pen feats...

the problem is the competition for the gear.... so many spellcasters are "competing" for the same gear.... its not like melee and such that have tons of options.... I can specialize Seelah with scimitars and sosiel with glaives for instance.... meanwhile the spell penetration gear is so few of to divide among companions that could actually use it...

which also means early game even having my combo of my sorcerer and Nenio.... my sorcerer gets all the spell pen so Nenio is pretty much on buff duty early and mid game... which I have her as a eldritch knight early anyways so its not like she's lacking in damage really running around with a bardiche enlarged and buffed up....

one solution I think would be nice is to kinda have like maybe a questline or something to expand the effect of the covenant of the inheritor to kinda get stronger over time..... like something in each Act that can make its bonuses a little stronger to help compensate for lack of spell pen gear... like act 2 it starts off with a +2 bonus to spell pen..... but do a quest or something in Act 3 to make it increase to a +4.... then Act 4 to a +6 and Act 5 to a +8.... or even have the spell pen bonus tied directly to your mythic level... it'd be weaker at first with only a +1 to spell pen.... but by end of Act 2 you'd be sitting at a +3 bonus...

pretty much like they did with the sword of radiance.... or with finnigan.... having them "grow" over time through the game... if they could pull something like that off with the covenant of the inheritor i'd imagine it would be a lot easier than trying to plop extra spell pen gear all over the place.... lol

[渺羽 (Nihilmace)]

In fact, enemies will get your Allied spellcaster bonus, too.
I don't know if they've fixed it yet.

[mbradtke]

of course you can just ignore the feat, because it has its "problems",
you might not totally need it but i would still like to have the option to take it if i wanted to,
i just dont want to bug my game in this case because it is an exploit in my point of view in its current state and i dont want to cheat, i can ignore minor "bugs" but this is just too much...
i already ignore the feat in kingmaker for the same reason and it would have been nice to have it working decently in wraith where SR is a bigger deal in case i "need" it....
maybe they will deal with it again but i dont have much hope, at last we get other fixes, i can live with it but i would just prefer a polished game with feats that do not freak out and might totally trivilaize encounters occ., just my 2 cents, thanks for the input everyone, appreciate it

[Elizabello]

Originally posted by mbradtke:

i just did some research because i find this topic interesting and will leave my data here, just in case anyone is interested in this...

so it seems allied spellcaster works different in the game than indicated in the standard rules, it is stronger in his PnP setting, it stacked in kingmaker already and so it does in wraith right now, some belive it should work like this but i think that is mostly because they dont like spell pen. and want to take adavantage of it, for whatever reason but many others also think it is bugged and should not stack because it behaves very strange and the wording doesnt support this, i think so too myself....

also they way it work is that it, once it triggers by 2 people or any other "teamwork activated" effect, is that it affects everyone on the field, maybe even enemies (not sure), people say "globally" to this, it means that it has no range limit, the tabletweak mod actually fixes this, so i have heard, making it much more balanced at last....

i dont think it is so problematic that it gives 4 spell pen and 4 concentration( i guess?)
for 2 people that have it but it is problematic that everyone, even people that dont have the feat will benefit from it, i think this is what people refer to when they say it works "globally", pls correct me if i am wrong, from my research this is what i figured out, you only need 2 people taht activate it and then everyone will get the bonus, maybe even enemies, they do not even need the feat, each additional person that triggers the feat will add another +2 on named checks to everyone, even martials like warrior with the feat, that can not cast spells(this should not work in my opinion, aside from special cases maybe) i think this is really weird and could need some attention

and lastly... they fixed this in 2021 it seems but reverted the change for unknown reasons, so it seems possible... what i dont understand is why not just fix it like tabletobtweaks does, so it doesnt affect everyone because that is just not balanced at all (free feats for everyone) and change the effect, so it is still useful without stacking, i do not even belive that stacking is the biggest problem, intended or not but the fact that you can take it on 2 people and everyone will get +4 spell pen and 4 concentration? is just stupid....
at last make sure that it only affects friendly members that are adjacent to each other, so the stacking problem will not be so much of an issue anymore, and big numbers from stacking it will also decrease

Agree with you on every single point.

Also on the topic of the need for greater spell pen and spen - you get those spell pen items primarily starting act 3 and later. And first two acts are the hardest parts of the game. Those +4 chance to pen can raises your chance to land magic by 20+%. Its significant. Game doesnt start in act 4 you know. Also enemy Spell Resistance doesnt change with difficulty lvls.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Elizabello:

Also on the topic of the need for greater spell pen and spen - you get those spell pen items primarily starting act 3 and later. And first two acts are the hardest parts of the game. Those +4 chance to pen can raises your chance to land magic by 20+%. Its significant. Game doesnt start in act 4 you know. Also enemy Spell Resistance doesnt change with difficulty lvls.

You are not wrong. But at the early levels I am not usually trying to affect my enemies with spells that need SR. Usually I'm buffing or using their non-spell abilities.

It's why I favor Woljif over Nenio until she comes online with Greater Command. And my Ember and Camellia are usually too busy Hexing to use any spells in combat.

That said, I was just saying it's possible to rely on gear for Spell Pen. I would personally get the Mythic/Greater/Spell Penetration feats anyway if I'm building to affect the enemy with spells.