Is this the most complex cRPG ever?

[Cortex_Reaver]

You have to figure out how to synergize feats, class abilities, mythic feats, mythic abilities, spells, and item properties for 6 party members. On top of that you can do multi-classing. People compare this game to classic Baldur's gate, but to me WOTR gives off Wizardry 6 and 7 vibes, but it's even more convoluted than those just due to the sheer mount of items and classes.

If there's anything more complicated I'd like to hear about it.

[hilburnashua]

Considering that it's based on the Pathfinder tabletop and about the only RPG I know of more rules intensive then that is RoleMaster and maybe Powers and Perils, I doubt it.

[KocLobster]

I can't contribute much here, sorry. WOTR is a fantastic game. I'm confident there are more complicated ones out there with more complex rulesets. I can't name them though. Solasta, probably?

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by cookie!:

I can't contribute much here, sorry. WOTR is a fantastic game. I'm confident there are more complicated ones out there with more complex rulesets. I can't name them though. Solasta, probably?

No. Solasta is a lot simpler. It is based on DnD3.
BG1-2, Neverwinter nights are more complex than Solasta.
(Hell even Xcom: Enemy Unknown is more complex than Solasta, the original from 94?)
Arcanum is also a complex game but differently complex.

On top of my head, i would say Wizardry series might be more complex. 6-7-8.

[hilburnashua]

Solasta is based on D&D 5. D&D 3 was the early version of D&D 3.5, where things were pretty broken ( improved critical stacking with keen for instance allowing rapiers to threaten on a 12+) . Pathfinder uses the framework of the 3.5 system.

[KocLobster]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Originally posted by cookie!:

I can't contribute much here, sorry. WOTR is a fantastic game. I'm confident there are more complicated ones out there with more complex rulesets. I can't name them though. Solasta, probably?

No. Solasta is a lot simpler. It is based on DnD3.
BG1-2, Neverwinter nights are more complex than Solasta.
(Hell even Xcom: Enemy Unknown is more complex than Solasta, the original from 94?)
Arcanum is also a complex game but differently complex.

On top of my head, i would say Wizardry series might be more complex. 6-7-8.

I'm sure you're right, I just thought I read somewhere Solasta was absurdly complicated, but I could've read that wrong or the person saying it could've been wrong. Never played it myself.

[ayrtep]

As others suggest BG3 and Solasta is based on D&D 5tth which has a relatively simplified character development. Divinity Sin 2 has richer in this regard.

You could check out rouge trader. Classes are fewer but there is a lot of variation within each.

Also Neverwinter nights 2 is basically the same system as Pathfinder.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by cookie!:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

No. Solasta is a lot simpler. It is based on DnD3.
BG1-2, Neverwinter nights are more complex than Solasta.
(Hell even Xcom: Enemy Unknown is more complex than Solasta, the original from 94?)
Arcanum is also a complex game but differently complex.

On top of my head, i would say Wizardry series might be more complex. 6-7-8.

I'm sure you're right, I just thought I read somewhere Solasta was absurdly complicated, but I could've read that wrong or the person saying it could've been wrong. Never played it myself.

Solasta in regards to effects and the like is a bit more complicated than BG3. Probably someone was comparing them? Because Solasta stayed as to say truer to DND5th ed rules than BG3. In Solasta....your wizard really does fly, not just jump over any distance, like in BG3. There are a lot of similar distinction. Also in BG3 you do not see many enemies that move or attack from vertical surfaces, in Solasta yes. It is a bit more complex than BG3, but it is not as complex as say PoE1-2, WoTR, KingMaker, or any CRPG's following the old school model. (Aka, they are not "movies":P)

Also for many players that usually play reflex intensive games, like FPS-s or Soul's like, most CRPG-s, even CRPG-lite-s (like BG3) are complex, so it all depends on the history of the player.

edit: I was not upset, or mad or anything, just was late, so i was blunt honest:)

[Wirewing]

CRPG is a broad game tag. No, it's not terribly complex in that realm. There seems like a wealth of options but, you're going to learn, as anyone who plays pathfinder tabletop, that there is one optimal, two suboptimal but still viable builds and everything else is, essentially, what one would generously refer to as 'roleplaying builds'.

The rp builds are why there are so many difficulty sliders - because the game lets you decide if your story is based on ruthless determinations or not. I guess the hard part is not knowing if your ideas are closer to optimal or RP before you even play the game.

This is why I crank up the options to difficult as possible and just download Toybox mod to make up for things I feel are unfair or insurmountable with my build so I can complete the story and test things out.

[Halindir]

Originally posted by Cortex_Reaver:

You have to figure out how to synergize feats, class abilities, mythic feats, mythic abilities, spells, and item properties for 6 party members. On top of that you can do multi-classing. People compare this game to classic Baldur's gate, but to me WOTR gives off Wizardry 6 and 7 vibes, but it's even more convoluted than those just due to the sheer mount of items and classes.

If there's anything more complicated I'd like to hear about it.

No, it's really bad actually. Kingmaker is better; Wrath of The Righteous is to Pathfinder what Dragon Age 2 was to Dragon Age.

[Noin Trongaz]

Originally posted by Wirewing:

CRPG is a broad game tag. No, it's not terribly complex in that realm. There seems like a wealth of options but, you're going to learn, as anyone who plays pathfinder tabletop, that there is one optimal, two suboptimal but still viable builds and everything else is, essentially, what one would generously refer to as 'roleplaying builds'.

The rp builds are why there are so many difficulty sliders - because the game lets you decide if your story is based on ruthless determinations or not. I guess the hard part is not knowing if your ideas are closer to optimal or RP before you even play the game.

This is why I crank up the options to difficult as possible and just download Toybox mod to make up for things I feel are unfair or insurmountable with my build so I can complete the story and test things out.

I played this game for 500 hours and I had a lot of fun creating different builds. Like a shapeshifter druid with all the natural attacks I could give him, so I ended up with an elemental form with 6 attacks per round and an insane thaco (without haste) and greater cleave and huge damage (and the range of these attacks is greater than anything normally possible for a melee). I think it was nerfed at some point, however.
I disagree that there are 2 viable builds. There are hundreds of viable builds for the max difficulty. Considering that there is multiclassing, mythic levels and buffs, you can make crazy stuff. There are probably OP builds which solo everything, sure, but simply viable to beat the game on the hardest difficulty? A ton of options.

[mk11]

Erannorth Chronicles has a lot more race/class/background options and then adds in deck building with multiple ways to go. However, you are basically only the one character, RPG element is quite light, and combat and exploration is simpler. So how do you define complexity?

[smellibear]

How do you determine complexity?

[Wirewing]

Originally posted by A Peasant Mobster:

Originally posted by Wirewing:

CRPG is a broad game tag. No, it's not terribly complex in that realm. There seems like a wealth of options but, you're going to learn, as anyone who plays pathfinder tabletop, that there is one optimal, two suboptimal but still viable builds and everything else is, essentially, what one would generously refer to as 'roleplaying builds'.

The rp builds are why there are so many difficulty sliders - because the game lets you decide if your story is based on ruthless determinations or not. I guess the hard part is not knowing if your ideas are closer to optimal or RP before you even play the game.

This is why I crank up the options to difficult as possible and just download Toybox mod to make up for things I feel are unfair or insurmountable with my build so I can complete the story and test things out.

I played this game for 500 hours and I had a lot of fun creating different builds. Like a shapeshifter druid with all the natural attacks I could give him, so I ended up with an elemental form with 6 attacks per round and an insane thaco (without haste) and greater cleave and huge damage (and the range of these attacks is greater than anything normally possible for a melee). I think it was nerfed at some point, however.
I disagree that there are 2 viable builds. There are hundreds of viable builds for the max difficulty. Considering that there is multiclassing, mythic levels and buffs, you can make crazy stuff. There are probably OP builds which solo everything, sure, but simply viable to beat the game on the hardest difficulty? A ton of options.

You are correct. I should have clarified my view as it was in context of feats.

There is one optimal and two viable builds for every class/ class combo.

Your example build with skill focuses and armor proficiencies would render results suboptimal to the power attack / cleave build.

[Cortex_Reaver]

Originally posted by smellibear:

How do you determine complexity?

I think it's the number of choices you have to make to make the party work plus the timing of those choices in terms of how early you have to start thinking about steering the party towards a particular synergy.