5ft Step and Full Attack Action

[WhiteNinjer]

I left this game for a year because I wanted to wait until they fixed the very simple problem of allowing the 5 step in between attack actions in turn based. It's RaW and also work when not in turn based. Why was it never changed? It exists just to punish multi attacks on people who play turn based. It still baffles me because the mod they bought had this functionality so it feels like a deliberate nerf. Do you feel turn based is OP? That taking a half foot step to use your remaining 2 attacks is broken?

Seriously. It's legit maddening.

[Maitrepof]

The 5 step + full attack is in the game since turn base was added in the first one, and in this one since launch at least.

To turn it on, you can use the key for it or click in the interface to switch to 5 step + full action mode.

[mk11]

Could you explain exactly which problem you mean?

AFAIK, they haven't fixed the problem that, in TP, the player can take a 5-step back then use their bow without triggering an AoO or use a reach weapon with full attack. But the AI won't use a 5' step so doesn't get its full attack.

[WhiteNinjer]

The problem isn't that you can't full attack after a 5 ft. step. I know you can 5ft before or after. It's that you can't use your five foot step between attacks. In the turn based mod in kingmaker before it was officially added, it worked (in my experience) by keeping your attacks and move separate. You make a full round attack, you get your pool of attacks and your 5 ft of movement. You will also lose move after an attack as well, even if you hadn't used it all. The turn based doesn't treat your move and attack like resources, but phases. A full round attack isn't attacking one enemy and the game knows it because it's not a problem for ranged attacks, only melee.

I should be able to make a full round attack, kill an enemy with attack #1, and use my five foot step to move to another enemy to use the other attacks. It will do it in RT mode, but it's does not work in turn based. It is how it is supposed to work and it is HOW it worked when it was a mod. It doesn't make sense to me that it has been missing since official implementation. Thankfully I had already beat kingmaker several times with it working correctly AND the mod still technically works there. I don't even have that option now.

[canuck250]

it is called full round attack, not full round with pause attack. I think it makes perfect sense how it works. If I think I am going to kill and still have hits remaining, I position before attacking to put me in range of other things.

[WhiteNinjer]

"A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below)."

Directly from the SRD.

That's fine that you think that (considering this is a video game adaptation), but even within the game, it doesn't work that way. It works the same as RaW in real time. Turn based is a representation. You aren't swinging once, pausing, and taking a step. You are swinging your weapons/fists and taking a step between attacks. Is it pausing when the archer shoots one guy and he dies, before he shoots another?

It doesn't make perfect sense. Furthermore, the game doesn't give you perfect representation of your attack radius and losing 2 attacks because you are an inch out of range is both frustrating and dumb.

Turns aren't step by step processes. They are representations of what is happening in a 6 sec time frame. If I can make a full attack and move 5 ft, then why remove that specific thing? I get that it's not the table top game but I have tested that it works just fine and as intended in RT. So what's the thought process on that? Should it be removed from RT?

If you are going to implement 5 ft. step, implement it properly. It exists for minor manoeuvring. A big part of why it exists in TT is for exactly this situation.

It's call turn based mode, not turn based with pause. I have a turn, and I have resources. I shouldn't lose my remaining move or attacks whether I move/attack/move, or full round attack and 5 step. I don't know if your experience is mostly with RT with pause systems, but this just isn't how turn based systems or the tabletop rules should work.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by WhiteNinjer:

Is it pausing when the archer shoots one guy and he dies, before he shoots another?

no, that was the point, either your feet are planted so you can do a full round attack or not. An archer is planted going from 1 target to another. In a perfect world momentum would be a thing in combat but that would become a mess to micro for me. As I said, just 5' step before attacking to position better.

Originally posted by WhiteNinjer:

the game doesn't give you perfect representation of your attack radius and losing 2 attacks because you are an inch out of range is both frustrating and dumb.

I agree 100% about the visual representation and have that as one of the top things I would want in this game over new content. But if you are an inch out of range irl, you ain't hittin anything so that makes sense. Position closer so you are not hoping the edge of your range is enough.

[WhiteNinjer]

The thing is that you don't need to plant your feet. The game is also not consistent. It works the same as RaW in RT but not in turn based. You have 5 ft. of movement if you use a full round action. Why omit during when before and after still work? And why remove functionality that existed in the mod they adapted the mode from in the first place?

I get that it makes sense to you. I'm not arguing its sense. If it made sense, it shouldn't work period, but it's only omitted from turn based.

If you think about it in the way table top explains it, that the move action and the attack action each take a chunk of your six seconds, it should be clearer. You aren't planting your feet to full round attack, your forgoing large movement to do so. A 5ft. step is effectively a unique swift action that you can only perform if you don't use your move action to move.

It shouldn't be a mess to micro. Your character should just use his 5ft of movement to close the distance with the next closest target and attack them. Just like the archer picks a new target and fires at them. It's not like you can't 5ft after. The movement is still a resource the character has.

[mk11]

Before they could do that they would need the options to split your attacks between targets and to make a single attack followed by a move action. There is a lot of things simplified from table-top to speed the game along.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by mk11:

Before they could do that they would need the options to split your attacks between targets and to make a single attack followed by a move action. There is a lot of things simplified from table-top to speed the game along.

Yup, that is the problem in a nutshell. Like with alchemists. You should be able to choose different bombs between throws with fast bomb or choose different targets for individual bombs but you cannot.

But for the people saying you cannot take a 5' step between the attacks of a full attack I point you to this rule in the "Take a 5-Foot Step" of the Combat section of the CRB.

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

[WhiteNinjer]

Originally posted by mk11:

Before they could do that they would need the options to split your attacks between targets and to make a single attack followed by a move action. There is a lot of things simplified from table-top to speed the game along.

I would agree but the mod the turn based mode is built off of HAD this functionality. It doesn't have to be chosen attacks. It can work just like the archer does and attack the next best/possible target. Again, the turn based mode is to make the game MORE like the table top. If you just make a pause version of turn based, it'll work properly. It's specifically nerfed in turn based mode, and the fact that it worked when it was a mod before Owlcat bought and adapted it is confusing to me.

It's the same for not being able to use your remaining move after an attack as well. It doesn't work like it should and no explanation (from someone qualified to give one) has been offered to my knowledge.

I wouldn't care if they actually just nerfed it. If it didn't work in RT or turn based, I wouldn't care. It only nerfs multistrikers in turn based mode.

[faolanthehedgehog]

The best way this could be implemented (mod or dev update) would be to make Full Attack an action on the hotbar, like Coup de Grace. When used, you make the 1st attack in the full attack, and it uses up your full-round action. Then you gain the ability to make a 5-foot step and individually targeted attacks as a "free action" up to the amount allowed by your full attack action.

[WhiteNinjer]

Well, the issue also applies to losing all your move when you attack. Much like the 5ft. step, movement isn't a phase, it's a resource (in tabletop). You should be able to move half your move distance, attack, and then use the rest of your move but you can't.

Really, movement and attacks need to be treated as pools and not phases. The solution present only fixes one of the two problems. It would be really odd to make a mod to make the turn based mode (which was originally a mod) work like it originally did. I think that solution might break how it works in RT as well. I get that having a system that works in both is the issue here, which is why I am annoyed it works properly in RT but not in turn based.

[faolanthehedgehog]

Originally posted by WhiteNinjer:

Well, the issue also applies to losing all your move when you attack. Much like the 5ft. step, movement isn't a phase, it's a resource (in tabletop). You should be able to move half your move distance, attack, and then use the rest of your move but you can't.

Really, movement and attacks need to be treated as pools and not phases. The solution present only fixes one of the two problems. It would be really odd to make a mod to make the turn based mode (which was originally a mod) work like it originally did. I think that solution might break how it works in RT as well. I get that having a system that works in both is the issue here, which is why I am annoyed it works properly in RT but not in turn based.

Actually, in Pathfinder 1e, unless you have the Spring Attack or Shot on the Run feats (which afaik aren't in this game), you can't move, attack, then move again. The same is true for spellcasting. Spellcasters can't move, cast, then move again. This is because the act of moving up to your speed is a singular Move Action, regardless of how far you actually move. What you're referring to is how it works in 5e D&D.

[WhiteNinjer]

Well, you can move, cast, and move in game (literally did so when I played earlier today). And it's how it works in several iterations of DnD, not just 5e. I was thinking of attack/move/attack, which you can't do because you can't opt out of a full attack action. Either way, there is a lack of consistency between modes and the application of rulesets.

Either way, you can 100% 5ft. between full attack attacks in TT, if we are only concerned with RaW. The implementation changes between the modes.