More theoretical question: how to play melee sorcerer properly?

[navigator4223]

So I'm a sorcerer guy, I love this class, I especially love my "special setup" (Crossblooded dragon / elementar of same element, later adding angelic bloodline for immunity to all elemental damage via mythic).

Usually, STR is my dump stat. Down to 7 because I like to have WIS a bit higher than most probably would (I go 14, I saw that most people go 10 or 12 at most).

With Dragonform III still STR never goes to a competitive value, but at the same time a sorcerer that was build around STR would be seriously gimped before getting dragon form.

How does one play this?

[ProestUnicorn]

There is a weapon early in act 3 - a berdiche, that makes You scale damage and AB from INT in case You got INT higher than STR, though it demands martial weapon proficiency, but I guess it is more of a wizard weapon.

For sorc You can go either Red Dragon Disciple as secondary class or dip a level into mutation warrior fighter midgame for martial feats and go into full sorc after. Personally I'd dip into mutation warrior, since it is so stacked.

Other than that, as a caster You only really need both spell penetration feats, school focus maybe and some cheap metamagic, Meaning You can go all into martial feats and maneuvers after.

All really depends how much of a melee You want to be. Some mythics are also better than others for this kind of builds for example.

[Immortal Reaver]

Scaled Fist 1, Oracle Nature Mystery - Nature Whispers 1, Sorcerer Dragon Bloodline 4, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 10.
Very High Cha (18-22), High STR (cca 16).
Dodge, Crane, Corugnon Smash+Dreadful Carnage combo, Two haded weapon.

[canuck250]

With Aasimar Angelkin you can get 18 14 7 12 18 (If you do the nature oracle dip you can drop dex). Then 4 into dragon disciple for extra str. Transformation is a big spell for melee caster as it brings your bab to your level. You get other transfrom spells like a wolf form early on, has the trip on bite like a pet so very effective.

There is also the gold dragon mythic path. Issue is that it comes late but it boosts any ability score up to 18 and your bab to 25. This was you can go basically anything at the start then go dragon mode at m8.

[mbradtke]

as others have said alrdy, if u want to melee on a caster, you have to get decent STR obviously, you AB will still not the greatest, thats why there are martial classes in the game, melee sorcecer requires some levels and good gear to get good, i would say a magus would be a better option but if u want to stay sorcecer you gotta have to grow into the build over time, like all casters
i would prolly go for spells like enlarge person, mirror image, basically anything that protects you from dmg and boosts your AB, Str

[lemurs2]

How to melee sorcerer properly: Don't

[Ginzo Force]

Originally posted by ProestUnicorn:

There is a weapon early in act 3 - a berdiche, that makes You scale damage and AB from INT in case You got INT higher than STR, though it demands martial weapon proficiency, but I guess it is more of a wizard weapon.

sounds great for a grenadier

[Yannir]

Originally posted by lemurs2:

How to melee sorcerer properly: Don't

I'm doing one currently, and it's not too shabby actually. Just not a whole lot of sorcerer in there. It's no fighter but it can compensate average melee with spells. I'd say it's core-viable but probably not higher difficulty than that.

There's, I'd say, 2 possible ways to do a melee sorcerer. A Str based build with heavy armor, or a Dex based one that relies on (Arch)Mage Armor. Str build is quicker to get up and hits harder, the Dex build is slightly tankier but is also more feat-intensive.

For the Str build I'd go with Sorcerer 6 - Dragon Disciple 4 - Hellknight Signifer 10. Which means you need to be Lawful alignment for this. It actually goes Sorcerer 1-5, Dragon Disciple 1-2, Signifer 1-2, DD 3-4, Signifer 3-10, Sorcerer 6. Angelkin Aasimar or Pitborn Tiefling are the best race options but Gemsoul Oread and Moroi-born Dhampir are also good options. Angelkin is the only one that doesn't take a stat penalty but the Pitborn gets extra crit confirmation chance. As for Bloodline, do either Blue or Copper Dragon. Use your Background selection to pick up a 2-hander proficiency from the choices available.

Signifer is used for Heavy Armor proficiency and average BAB progression without losing any spellbook progression. You need just enough Cha to be able to cast all your spells, rest of the points go into Str. One key piece of gear you need IMO is Stormlord's Resolve since it allows you to turn all your spells into electric damage without wasting a Mythic ability speccing into an Elemental Bloodline. This is why we picked a Bloodline that gets +1 dmg per dice into electric damage. Then you just need Ascended Element - Electricity and some Spell Pen. Most other feats are spent on melee stuff.

I've done this build once before as a mercenary and now I'm doing it as a main character. It reached about 64 AC(56 on the stat card and +8 cover AC from Seamantle which doesn't show in the card) on a merc even when using a 2-hander. Which is pretty good when not using a shield or doing Crane Style. I'm doing a Lich MC so I can get it higher this time.

For the "Dex"-build I'd do Sorcerer 9 - Scaled Fist 1 - Eldritch Knight 10. Which would look like Sorc 1, SF 1, Sorc 2-7, EK 1-10, Sorc 8-9. I would likely do Human here so you can spend that extra lvl 1 feat on Martial Weapons Proficiency that you'll need for EK. Getting it later just feels like wasting a feat.

I think that focusing on Charisma when making a melee sorcerer is a mistake. Just pick up enough along the way to get to lvl 9 spells but any extra beyond that is pointless. Your intention is to go melee which means you don't need a huge selection of spells, mostly just buffs.

[pete3great]

Eldritch scion.

[jsaving]

You generally want to go lich-to-legend if you're wanting to play a melee sorcerer in Wrath. Melee sorcerers aren't the game's strongest option like they were in Kingmaker but are still quite strong if properly built.

[echoes222]

wouldn't playing magus be a better choice if you want to play melee mage? ;p

[Yannir]

Originally posted by echoes222:

wouldn't playing magus be a better choice if you want to play melee mage? ;p

Dragon Disciple or Eldritch Knight make no sense for a Magus as multiclasses. Magus also makes very little sense if you want to use a 2-hander. It's kinda the easiest way to make a melee mage, not necessarily the best. Though Scion or SS are very good on their own right as well but they do lock you into a certain playstyle.

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by Yannir:

I'd say it's core-viable but probably not higher difficulty than that.

Your Dex variant is definitely viable on Unfair, as I'm playing one right now, except I replaced one Sorc level with Oracle 1 for extra AC. It sacrifices level 9 spells, but the added AC is pretty much mandatory to survive the first two acts (in solo, at least).

[Immortal Reaver]

You take Oracle+Scaled Fist dips and it will be better than DEX can ever get.

[Steffan]

I've been running a semi-melee sorcerer. I liked it so much I did it twice. In both time I ended making him an Eldritch Scion magus when I went to legend. But he can be viable even without the Legend path as a single class sorcerer.

Personally, my favorite build was Crossblooded (abyssal bloodline as main, black dragon as a second bloodline) on Demon-Legend Path. I maxed Charisma but his sarting strength was 16 (his race was demonspawn tiefling). In the prologue he was perfectly capable to fight with a spear (his first spells were shield and then mage armor) and did a decent work in the starting acts. He almost soloed Marhevoc and his dragon with melee touch spells. The later in game, the more into the rear he was sent. I think he frequently ventured into melee until the Abyssal city. And then again, once he acquired magus levels.

I mostly played him in turn based due to precision issues. He can be a full sorcerer even without the Legend add-up but then you should not expect him to be in a melee at the end-game. But at that level his spells + fitting mythic powers (I can attest the powers of the Path of the Demon are insane) are quite strong.

The difficulty was Hard for most of the game but I played most of the final act on Unfair. I also completed the Inevitable Excess DLC on Hard. Reloads due to death of a main character/ TPK were around 10 for the whole game, which was acceptable.

The Stats were like 16 Str. (including + 2 from race), 14 Con, 12 Dex, 19 Char (incl. +2 from race), Wis 8 and Int 10 (incl.-2 from race)

[Drake]

Which difficulty ? I would say on core you could do just well by going to for sorc 10/dragon disciple 10 and just using dragonkind III.
If you're melee you don't need that much of CHA, 28-30 would be enough by endgame, you just need to use buffs and hit hard.
You could go legend and pick some oracle levels for CHA to AC.

You could also just go for bloodrager.