attacking from stealth: bonus

[Cryos_Feron]

hi, I am playing a pure Zen Archer and invested quite a few points into stealth, in order to sneak up on enemies and do the first strike, in order to get the usual damange bonus like in other games.
Now I've noticed that apparently in POTR it only comes down to winning the initiative roll and to catch the enemy "flat-footed" (completely regardless of being in stealth or not) !

Is this correct? and if yes, what is the purpose of stealth - just to avoid enemies entirely but not to gain any benefits in combat?

[Soul]

I suppose it depends on how your using it... I mean stealth and disarming traps is very useful for me... and sometimes I like to use invisibility on my sorcerer just so I can get into a better position for something like a well aimed lightning bolt...

early game I sometimes like to have a stealthy character sneak up and try to find enemies that are out of field of vision so I can charge my tank at a hard to reach enemy without triggering combat prematurely...

[.//slayer]

Stealth is necessary if you want to disengage reliably. For instance, you cast Improved Invisibility on your party, attack a large group of enemies, take down a couple of them and want to retreat and recover your resources. You need high stealth to make sure that the enemies will fail their perception checks while chasing you. This is more relevant for high difficulty levels, though.

Similarly, if you don't want to fight certain enemies and prefer to avoid them and sneak by, you need high stealth combined with Invisibility to get by without triggering a perception check. Again, might only be relevant for high difficulties.

[hilburnashua]

Unless you get sneak attack damage (which certain classes, like rogues and slayers have), yes the only advantage of attacking from stealth is the opponent will be flat-footed.

No, Pathfinder does not apply multipliers to damage for attacking from stealth, if it did you would be one shotting many creatures and Pathfinder is a group game and this game is based on the Pathfinder tabletop.

Stealth can allow you to move up and reveal opponents (assuming they are not themselves stealthed) which can be very useful in determining which targets are the most dangerous and need to be attacked first.

One of stealth's biggest problems is if you move a stealthed character up and trigger a cut scene your character is dropped out of stealth and probably well in advance of the rest of the party.

[Cryos_Feron]

Originally posted by .//slayer:

Stealth is necessary if you want to disengage reliably. For instance, you cast Improved Invisibility on your party, attack a large group of enemies, take down a couple of them and want to retreat and recover your resources.

I have no idea of how this is done. So far I've never been able to see a difference when I attack from stealth. As mentioned, there only is the initiative check - but that's regardless of being in stealth or not

[Cryos_Feron]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Unless you get sneak attack damage (which certain classes, like rogues and slayers have), yes the only advantage of attacking from stealth is the opponent will be flat-footed.

But that's what I am saying: "flat-footed" apparently only means that they've lost the initiative check before their first attack - this doesnt seem to be tied to attacking from stealth - just to the initiative number

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

But that's what I am saying: "flat-footed" apparently only means that they've lost the initiative check before their first attack - this doesnt seem to be tied to attacking from stealth - just to the initiative number

Might i as what do you expect to happen?

[Razer]

Attacking from stealth is a guaranteed attack vs flatfooted AC of the enemy, before initiative rolls. And yes, everyone is flatfooted in the first round of combat until you've had your first turn. This is one of the reasons initiative is important, because you'll be able to attack before the enemy does and possibly hit them vs their flatfooted AC in the first round.

Look at it this way. Attack from stealth is a guaranteed "suprise" attack, while just going in gung ho, has a chance of being a surprise attack.

[Cryos_Feron]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

But that's what I am saying: "flat-footed" apparently only means that they've lost the initiative check before their first attack - this doesnt seem to be tied to attacking from stealth - just to the initiative number

Might i as what do you expect to happen?

my expectation is that attacking from stealth would make a difference.

someone said enemies then are "flat-footed" which indeed would have been something. BUT apparently enemies are flat-footed because they lost the initiative roll and not because if stealth.

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Might i as what do you expect to happen?

my expectation is that attacking from stealth would make a difference.

someone said enemies then are "flat-footed" which indeed would have been something. BUT apparently enemies are flat-footed because they lost the initiative roll and not because if stealth.

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

You are misunderstanding the initiative. Like Razer already mentioned above, everyone is flat-footed in the first round (unless they have some rare high-level feats that remove this penalty).

Initiative determines the action order during the rounds. It is very important, because if you win the initiative, you might kill the enemies with your alpha-strike before they even have a chance to act. But whether you win or lose the initiative, you are still going to be flat-footed during the first round of combat.

So, under the circumstances, stealth can help you with positioning before the encounter, avoiding the encounter entirely, or running away and disengaging if your skill is high enough. It does not give any particular advantage during the combat itself.

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

It's not just rogues - any character with sneak attacks receives bonus damage against flat-footed or flanked targets.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

And in this game you gain 1 attack/action for free against a flat footed enemy, then initiative starts. The surprising side gets half a bonus turn and then initiative resolves normally, based on the Pathfinder rules, meaning everyone is flat-footed until their turn order came up.

As mentioned already, you can use stealth to position yourself for the bonus round and even cast spells to start the fight with every enemy paralyzed and in coup de gras range.

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

Zen Archer is not a Rogue and Rogues dont benefit more from surprise than anyone. Their special damage works against the flat footed regardless how you flatfoot them.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Might i as what do you expect to happen?

my expectation is that attacking from stealth would make a difference.

someone said enemies then are "flat-footed" which indeed would have been something. BUT apparently enemies are flat-footed because they lost the initiative roll and not because if stealth.

in most games you'd receive a damage bonus when attacking from stealth which is not the case here unless I am a rogue class.
so what is it here?

Not precisesly. Everyone is flat footed in the first round of combat until they had their turn. Stealth allows you to always attack first regardless of initiative. It also allows you to move to a specific spot and engage on your terms if you wish. Stealth is broken in many games. Stuff doesn't hurt more because you didn't see it coming. At any rate, sneak attacks are also busted in this game regardless since you don't need to sneak attack anyone to benefit from it. Sneak attack applies to flat footed enemies and enemies that are flanked, even if those enemies are actively attacking you (which makes no sense, but lots of things in Pathfinder don't). You don't need to actually flank an enemy to sneak attack in this game. Just have two characters attack the same enemy. Position and engagement don't matter at all.

If stealth was as broken as you assumed it was, then lots of people would abuse it. So I'm happy it isn't broken.

[Cryos_Feron]

Originally posted by Razer:

Stealth allows you to always attack first regardless of initiative.

wait so that I didn't know - maybe thats because I am not playing turn-based.
I just check the events, and there my stealthy character has to do an initiative roll just like all the others. will check more carefully then.

edit: ok i did check the events now and the stealthy character doesn't get an action before all others - they have to do the initiative check along with everybody else (not even getting a bonus) and had I lost (which I didnt) I probably wouldnt even have gotten the first attack

[.//slayer]

edit: ok i did check the events now and the stealthy character doesn't get an action before all others - they have to do the initiative check along with everybody else (not even getting a bonus) and had I lost (which I didnt) I probably wouldnt even have gotten the first attack

You mean, during the combat itself? Everyone rolls initiative like normal, regardless of stealth. But if you initiate the combat from stealth, then you obviously attack first - because the enemy hasn't seen you yet.

You don't have to be in stealth to initiate combat, too - you could just attack from far away and get a free first attack this way.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Cryos_Feron:

Originally posted by Razer:

Stealth allows you to always attack first regardless of initiative.

wait so that I didn't know - maybe thats because I am not playing turn-based.
I just check the events, and there my stealthy character has to do an initiative roll just like all the others. will check more carefully then.

edit: ok i did check the events now and the stealthy character doesn't get an action before all others - they have to do the initiative check along with everybody else (not even getting a bonus) and had I lost (which I didnt) I probably wouldnt even have gotten the first attack

If attacking from stealth let's you roll initiative, then that's a bug. It shouldn't.

Could be what you're seeing is the initiative roll for normal combat start. Which automatically starts when you attack. So when you're in stealth then you can have a single free attack outside of combat and initiative. Then you immediately roll for initiative like everyone else. So the combat log should show an attack roll before the initiative roll.

[Warbird]

1- Your Stealthy or Invisible character get a first preemptive strike ( a free attack ) BEFORE Initiative is rolled for everyone.

2- Everyone is Flat-Footed until they get their first move during the first round. Only exception are characters with Uncanny Dodge and such.