Do you count, -4 for for firing into melee

[ayrtep]

If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other.

An enemy is threatening you in melee, no one else is in the area, for whatever reason you can't 5' step back from them. Do you get a -4 penalty for firing at your opponent with a ranged weapon.

I have searched the internet and got lots of conflicting answers as to whether you count as a friendly character to yourself.

[canuck250]

Not 100% sure on this but that is because I would avoid it at all costs. Unless I have a certain bow build but then I have the feats to negate the -4 anyways.

Why you want to avoid shooting bow in melee is because :

Attack of Opportunity
Attacks of opportunity (AoO) are special melee attacks. A character can perform them during an enemy's turn if that enemy provokes it while being in their threatened area, creating an opening for a hit. The number of such attacks a creature can make per round is limited - usually a creature can't perform it more than once, even if it's provoked again during the same turn.

Following actions provoke AoO when an enemy attempts them while standing in a threatened area:

Attempt to leave melee
Ranged Attack
Attempt to stand up from being prone
Casting a spell
Drinking a potion

[ayrtep]

You can get around AOO with the point blank master feat, assume you have that as I am only interested in the -4 penalty.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

You can get around AOO with the point blank master feat, assume you have that.

? So what is your build if you are taking pbm and not precise shot?

-How to unlock Point Blank Master
You'll need to fulfill the following requirements to unlock Point Blank Master
Fighter level 4
Zen Archer (Monk) level 3 : added automatically as an archetype feature.

How to unlock Precise Shot
You'll need to fulfill the following requirements to unlock Precise Shot
Point-Blank Shot


You can have precise shot at level 1 if you can select 2 feats on any class. PBM needs level 3 minimum and only comes with 2 classes.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

assume you have that as I am only interested in the -4 penalty.

I like to support ppl playing their own way but this makes no sense to me. Why be a bow user, who can melee but even at range suck at hitting things?

If you want to avoid the AoO by using feats, then avoid the -4 with feats.

[ayrtep]

For whatever reason you have decided to take the point blank feat and not the precision shot feat at level 1.

Or put it another way I am trying to find out how important it is to take an early precision shot in various builds.

Fwiw you can also get point blank master from loremaster secrets. Something a ray focused wizard might do.

Anyway why I wont to know is irrelevant, the key point is what does the game actually do.

[canuck250]

Let me put it this way, it would be a huge waste to use ranged attacks and skip precise shot. It would be a bigger waste to take more bow feats, like melee range ones.... Just use a melee weapon, heck a reach melee weapon will do far more then a bow user that misses but avoids aoo in melee.

Yes LM can get anything, but that late I don't consider it in this case as we are talking early game. Plus, my ray casters are not blasting in melee. I would rather waste a turn then waste a feat.

[ayrtep]

Sure whatever, but what does the game actually do? Do you get -4 when targeting an enemy in melee combat with you and no one else with a ranged weapon?

[ayrtep]

Lormeaster can come at level six, if you are doing a ray build you likely start with the spell penetration feats, point blank and weapon focus ray meta bolster and empower and of course skill focus. Precision shot is not obvious especially if playing solo.

[canuck250]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

Lormeaster comes at level six, if you are doing a ray build you likely start with the spell penetration feats, point blank and weapon focus ray meta bolster and empower. Precision strike is not obvious if playing solo.

Rushing a blaster caster to LM to get PBM (which I personally would never do) is a thing you know but precise shot is not obvious?

[canuck250]

Originally posted by talemore:

And what is melee in the context.

Melee is threat range, so that depends on who is threatening you. If a halfling has a dagger, they have a small threat range, if an enlarged medium size has a reach weapon, they now have a huge threat range.

If you have an enlarged party member with a reach weapon and lunge, you now have a huge threat range on the enemy. Which helps for outflank and your own AoOs.

[Soul]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

Sure whatever, but what does the game actually do? Do you get -4 when targeting an enemy in melee combat with you and no one else with a ranged weapon?

just tested it with Nenio to double check.... fired a cantrip on at an enemy in melee range with no one else around.... there was no -4 penalty for firing into melee.... it was a level 5 Nenio so pretty much her base feats... no point blank shot or precise shot feats...