Struggling with spellcaster companions

[N.KagnitO)))]

I'm currently just out of Drezen on my first playthrough on normal. The game is pretty fun, and I managed to somewhat understand melee combat, my melee guys turn demons into paste, especially Regil and my cavalier PC. Lann is also pretty good at vaporising anything I point him at. But the spellcasters...

I just can't make them work. Outside of healing and buffs, anything I throw at demons has the impact of a flaccid wet noodle. No damage, no debuffs, nothing.

On leveling up I'm always faced with a huge list of spells that sound really cool, but in practice they do nothing to enemies. I don't understand how to make use of all this magic.

[Soul]

my main is a sorcerer.... you have to read the spell descriptions not just in what they do but things like saves and spell pen on top of the spell.... early game it can be a little rough cause enemies have high spell resistance for instance... so if your flinging around something like scorching ray it requires a spell penetration check to hit.... but if you instead used something like snowball its a conjuration spell that when it hits the only save is a fort save for chance to negate the stun effect.. no damage is halved.... or how fireball requires spell resistance check and enemies have to roll reflex saves to try to avoid half the damage normally....

depending on what your going for gear wise it will take some time to build up a bit.... stack spell resistance through gear and mythic path abilities and eventually spell resistance will be a non issue.... also for having enemies pass or fail things like reflex saves you need higher DC which can be done with gear and such too....

but in Act 3 is when spellcasters can really start gearing up and get stronger.... you just gotta get the gear through quests and crusades and such...

[N.KagnitO)))]

Originally posted by Soul:

my main is a sorcerer.... you have to read the spell descriptions not just in what they do but things like saves and spell pen on top of the spell.... early game it can be a little rough cause enemies have high spell resistance for instance... so if your flinging around something like scorching ray it requires a spell penetration check to hit.... but if you instead used something like snowball its a conjuration spell that when it hits the only save is a fort save for chance to negate the stun effect.. no damage is halved.... or how fireball requires spell resistance check and enemies have to roll reflex saves to try to avoid half the damage normally....

depending on what your going for gear wise it will take some time to build up a bit.... stack spell resistance through gear and mythic path abilities and eventually spell resistance will be a non issue.... also for having enemies pass or fail things like reflex saves you need higher DC which can be done with gear and such too....

but in Act 3 is when spellcasters can really start gearing up and get stronger.... you just gotta get the gear through quests and crusades and such...

Kinda lame, to be honest. Probably the most lame, most overcomplicated magic combat system I've seen, at least at low level.

Played spellcasters in many other games, from WoW to Dark Souls. I even played some in Larian's games. They all felt competent. In every fight I felt like I could contribute something.

The fact that you need some super special gear doesn't sell me on spell casting at all.

[Yannir]

You can build an effective spellcaster that's naked so it's not gear you need. It's feats. Because with spellcasters you build on top of your previous feats and they all add up together.
All classes have a power curve and arcane spellcasters peak late precisely because they're not dependant on gear.

Fighters can get plate armor and magic weapons pretty early and then you're basically set. Upgrade as you can. But a spellcaster is reliant on their own power which builds over time.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Casters are in a strange place in this game. The spellslot system really works against them in the early game, as not only are their abilities pretty weak but you also only get to do them like 3 times before needing to rest. Outflank and the myriad of Feats to enhance melee combat gives this game a strong skew in preference of martial characters.

In my current campaign I am playing a Sorcerer with full focus on lightning. Unlocking Chain Lightning at level 14 has completely turned the class on its head, as I've gone from doing pretty much nothing every encounter to now exploding whole rooms of enemies into gore with one immensely satisfying blast of zippy magic. While it is awesomely fun and strong, there's no getting around the fact that it's been completely useless for like 15 hours of gameplay up to this point.

As for the companions, none of them are 'wizards' in the sense we typically think. Daeran is a healing god. Nenio is an illusionist. Sosiel is a buffing machine. Ember is a handicapped witch with like 2 useful hexes and a plethora of garbage ones, a trash tier spell list, and who the game desperately tries to convince you is powerful by having HEAPS of gear to buff fire spells.

Mods do fix this, but that's hardly something the game can take credit for. Also I give it half an hour before the MJ munchkin shows up saying Nenio can destroy the world with Phantasmal Killer and that we all need to bow down and suck her toes or w/e.


My advice would be to not worry about it. Daeran or Sosiel can both cast Crusader's Edge (which also works on your pets!). Buff up Regil, your Cavallier, and Seelah, and all of the pets - then ride to wrath and ruin!

[Soul]

Originally posted by N.KagnitO))):

Originally posted by Soul:

my main is a sorcerer.... you have to read the spell descriptions not just in what they do but things like saves and spell pen on top of the spell.... early game it can be a little rough cause enemies have high spell resistance for instance... so if your flinging around something like scorching ray it requires a spell penetration check to hit.... but if you instead used something like snowball its a conjuration spell that when it hits the only save is a fort save for chance to negate the stun effect.. no damage is halved.... or how fireball requires spell resistance check and enemies have to roll reflex saves to try to avoid half the damage normally....

depending on what your going for gear wise it will take some time to build up a bit.... stack spell resistance through gear and mythic path abilities and eventually spell resistance will be a non issue.... also for having enemies pass or fail things like reflex saves you need higher DC which can be done with gear and such too....

but in Act 3 is when spellcasters can really start gearing up and get stronger.... you just gotta get the gear through quests and crusades and such...

Kinda lame, to be honest. Probably the most lame, most overcomplicated magic combat system I've seen, at least at low level.

Played spellcasters in many other games, from WoW to Dark Souls. I even played some in Larian's games. They all felt competent. In every fight I felt like I could contribute something.

The fact that you need some super special gear doesn't sell me on spell casting at all.

well yes and no... this game is... unique... in DnD 3.5 is what I played back in the day and spellcasters were limited for a reason... in here its not so visible but in tabletop they can do really crazy things like level 9 spells called wish and such... like melee had a decent power creep but spellcasters were weak low levels then were pretty much game breaking gods at higher ones....

and normally enemies in these type of systems arent having things like spell resistance on them so early in the game... in tabletop usually enemies with spell resistance are tossed in by the time players are high enough level that its not that much of an issue.. more balance... in here though the setting has you fighting demons at the get go which are naturally spell resistant... which while it is off balanced having it that early... its part of the way the story unfolds kinda thing....

but yeah in dnd games... ive had it explained to me that spellcasters are not meant to be throwing around their strongest spells left and right 24/7... and that your role as a spellcaster is to pretty much be there when needed... as in things too tough or needing some more form of control over battlefield or to counter other enemy spellcasters.... think of it like a glass cannon.... not a machine gun....

also you gotta realize this game is based off a system that is very old... and inspired a lot of the modern games into shaping the way they are.... so its kinda like comparing the first automobile to the modern car.... even still modern games have a lot of issues with balancing melee and spellcasting I see.... even WOW made changes from classic to now on how mages worked... in the classic game they would be out of mana and just stuck using wands till they regenerated mana....

[Soul]

Originally posted by Yannir:

You can build an effective spellcaster that's naked so it's not gear you need. It's feats. Because with spellcasters you build on top of your previous feats and they all add up together.
All classes have a power curve and arcane spellcasters peak late precisely because they're not dependant on gear.

Fighters can get plate armor and magic weapons pretty early and then you're basically set. Upgrade as you can. But a spellcaster is reliant on their own power which builds over time.

im meaning how you can pick up gear to not have to worry about taking some feats to compensate.... feats are important of course.... but if you pick up the right gear for instance and use the right buffs you dont need to ever take something like spell penetration.... like Azata mythic path for instance you can pick up lifebonding friendship as a superpower and pick allied spellcaster teamwork feat.... that stacks a +2 spell pen for every ally within range... so you could have 5 party members and 2 with pets together to proc it and receive a +14 to spell penetration for everyone in aura..... thats the same equivalent as taking spell penetration, greater spell penetration, and mythic spell penetration on all your characters... freeing them up for taking 2 other normal feats an a different mythic rank feat...

[N.KagnitO)))]

Originally posted by Yannir:

You can build an effective spellcaster that's naked so it's not gear you need. It's feats. Because with spellcasters you build on top of your previous feats and they all add up together.
All classes have a power curve and arcane spellcasters peak late precisely because they're not dependant on gear.

Fighters can get plate armor and magic weapons pretty early and then you're basically set. Upgrade as you can. But a spellcaster is reliant on their own power which builds over time.

Sigh. Big sigh. I don't hate the game and I don't want to seem overly agressive, but I've been raised on magic systems that start good and stay good. Coming from Larian to this, it feels like scorching ray is less scorching and more like annoying cigarette lighter.

I'm tempted to just make a melee/bow party and restart. Something that starts really weak and gets good later is really not my style. I expect at least SOME starting competency.

[Darklord]

I absolutely loved Ember at low level, she made so many encounters trivial with her sleep hex!

Daniel.

[Wyrtt]

Originally posted by N.KagnitO))):

Originally posted by Yannir:

You can build an effective spellcaster that's naked so it's not gear you need. It's feats. Because with spellcasters you build on top of your previous feats and they all add up together.
All classes have a power curve and arcane spellcasters peak late precisely because they're not dependant on gear.

Fighters can get plate armor and magic weapons pretty early and then you're basically set. Upgrade as you can. But a spellcaster is reliant on their own power which builds over time.

Sigh. Big sigh. I don't hate the game and I don't want to seem overly agressive, but I've been raised on magic systems that start good and stay good. Coming from Larian to this, it feels like scorching ray is less scorching and more like annoying cigarette lighter.

I'm tempted to just make a melee/bow party and restart. Something that starts really weak and gets good later is really not my style. I expect at least SOME starting competency.

Casters are garbage in Larian games. Magic has cooldown so you cant both destroy magic armor and apply magic effects. Full melee party with some magic skills is the wat to go for DOS2.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by N.KagnitO))):

Originally posted by Yannir:

You can build an effective spellcaster that's naked so it's not gear you need. It's feats. Because with spellcasters you build on top of your previous feats and they all add up together.
All classes have a power curve and arcane spellcasters peak late precisely because they're not dependant on gear.

Fighters can get plate armor and magic weapons pretty early and then you're basically set. Upgrade as you can. But a spellcaster is reliant on their own power which builds over time.

Sigh. Big sigh. I don't hate the game and I don't want to seem overly agressive, but I've been raised on magic systems that start good and stay good. Coming from Larian to this, it feels like scorching ray is less scorching and more like annoying cigarette lighter.

I'm tempted to just make a melee/bow party and restart. Something that starts really weak and gets good later is really not my style. I expect at least SOME starting competency.

If you're playing a Cavalier yourself, there's no real need to. You don't have to drag Nenio or Ember around from the beginning. You can just swap your party comp and pick them up when they start getting good. Unless you turned off shared XP.

Can you share what builds you have on your companions(or mercs)? Mostly interested in feats and what spells you're using.

[N.KagnitO)))]

Originally posted by Yannir:

If you're playing a Cavalier yourself, there's no real need to. You don't have to drag Nenio or Ember around from the beginning. You can just swap your party comp and pick them up when they start getting good. Unless you turned off shared XP.

Can you share what builds you have on your companions(or mercs)? Mostly interested in feats and what spells you're using.

Mostly spell penetration and focus on evocation, stuff that I thought would help. I dunno, I haven't played games based on this system. It seems like whatever I choose does nothing anyway. If you want to suggest some feats for Ember and Nenio, it would be nice. Otherwise I'm tempted to just boot them outright.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Once Ember is around level 11 or so she should start doing damage with Scorching Ray. Make sure you have Ascendant Element: Fire, and Abundant Casting, then everything else in spell penetration. She'll also need the Precise Shot feat, since spells with "Ray" in the name are weapon attacks, much like a bow.

There are a bunch of items you can get that'll further increase her damage with fire spells, like the Ring of Pyromania that can be purchased from Arsenio in Drezen (the cleric NPC in the southwest). You'll also eventually find the Attractive Impulse by clearing out enemies in campaign mode to the south, which can be turned into a powerful Metamagic Rod.

[Soul]

Originally posted by N.KagnitO))):

Originally posted by Yannir:

If you're playing a Cavalier yourself, there's no real need to. You don't have to drag Nenio or Ember around from the beginning. You can just swap your party comp and pick them up when they start getting good. Unless you turned off shared XP.

Can you share what builds you have on your companions(or mercs)? Mostly interested in feats and what spells you're using.

Mostly spell penetration and focus on evocation, stuff that I thought would help. I dunno, I haven't played games based on this system. It seems like whatever I choose does nothing anyway. If you want to suggest some feats for Ember and Nenio, it would be nice. Otherwise I'm tempted to just boot them outright.

if you want check out cRPG Bro's youtube channel... he has builds for different characters.... including main if you wanna take a look at how he builds em.... one Nenio Build he has up I like is a eldritch knight and loremaster.... there is an bardiche you can aquire in Act 3 that scales its damage and hit to int...

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Once Ember is around level 11 or so she should start doing damage with Scorching Ray. Make sure you have Ascendant Element: Fire, and Abundant Casting, then everything else in spell penetration. She'll also need the Precise Shot feat, since spells with "Ray" in the name are weapon attacks, much like a bow.

There are a bunch of items you can get that'll further increase her damage with fire spells, like the Ring of Pyromania that can be purchased from Arsenio in Drezen (the cleric NPC in the southwest). You'll also eventually find the Attractive Impulse by clearing out enemies in campaign mode to the south, which can be turned into a powerful Metamagic Rod.

Ember starts with Precise Shot so no need to worry about that.

[fox5s]

I can give you some Ember advice. Get the Bolster Metamagic, the two Spell Pen Feats and probably Empower and Maximize. For Mythics, get Ascended Element Fire, Mythic Spell Pen, and then load up on Favored Metamagics for Bolster, Empower, and Maximize. Now her Scorching Rays are doing work at various levels when you need them to. You can mix and match Rods with her feats for various levels of spells. Eventually (lvl 15) her Curse will give her Hellfire Ray for the high level slots. Go to town, have fun.

That's if you want to set her up for Ray casting. In addition to that, make sure you get her the Protective Luck, Evil Eye, and Cackle Hexes for when you don't need her blasting. Those will massively make your life easier and she can keep them running indefinitely with Cackle.

For Nenio... I'm just gonna drop the build link i stole from MjKorz.

https://pastebin.com/RbdQQSqx

With that she can CC early with Hideous Laughter. She can single target save or suck (for a while) with Phantasmal Killer. Then she does dirty things with Conjuration spells. And she can Hard CC with Greater Command. Enjoy.

Woljif... I wouldn't worry too much about his spells. I mostly just use them for arcane buffs. His strength is probably his sneak attacking.

Sosiel and Daeren can both get pet with ease via Impossible Domain Animal and Second Mystery Nature respectively. So that even if they aren't doing anything personally, you can have pets with teamwork feats on the front with everyone else. Sosiel has amazing buffs so you don't really care what he does in combat. He's probably already enabled everyone to cakewalk through the fight before it even started. Daeren is mostly heals but you can easily pick up some buffs and status removal spells. Clerics/Oracles don't generally shine as much with offensive spells.

Camellia's spells are mostly good for buffing. She can get the same Hex suite that I recommended for Ember. Though I'd add Iceheart and Battlemaster to her must haves. Her damage starts out crap but you can fix that by level five via Weapon Focus Rapier and Fencing Grace (there are other ways to fix her damage but that's the simplest). My Cam went into Teamwork feats after that to benefit the front line just by being present.

If you don't play Turn-Based Mode, I can see ignoring the Protective Luck, Evil Eye, Cackle/Chant Hexes because they require a TON of micromanagement in RTwP.

Hope this perspective gives you some ideas! :D