Baleful Polymorph

[Hunny]

So, I am playing Inevitable Excess DLC as a Oracle swarm thingy and got hit by the spell Baleful Polymorph turning me into a dog. Without using mods/cheats to get rid of it, how would I manage to turn back legit?

[Happyscientist]

hmm can you use scrolls?

[Cutlass Jack]

Dogs can't read. (or at least thats what they want you to think.)

[fox5s]

Potion of Remove Curse. Might need Break Enchantment. But you need them in Potion format. Unless you have extra swarm bodies to use a Scroll with. I'm pretty surprised that Swarm can even be polymorphed in the first place. Swarms should be immune to that by the exact same logic that normal swarms are immune to weapon damage when made of small enough creatures.

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Dogs can't read. (or at least thats what they want you to think.)

No. Dogs can't speak. IE perform the Verbal component of casting even from a Scroll. Maybe you meant to say they can't read aloud.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Potion of Remove Curse. Might need Break Enchantment. But you need them in Potion format. Unless you have extra swarm bodies to use a Scroll with. I'm pretty surprised that Swarm can even be polymorphed in the first place. Swarms should be immune to that by the exact same logic that normal swarms are immune to weapon damage when made of small enough creatures.

Yeah, next time I make sure to bring me some potions of remove curse and see if it would help.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Mossa:

Originally posted by fox5s:

Potion of Remove Curse. Might need Break Enchantment. But you need them in Potion format. Unless you have extra swarm bodies to use a Scroll with. I'm pretty surprised that Swarm can even be polymorphed in the first place. Swarms should be immune to that by the exact same logic that normal swarms are immune to weapon damage when made of small enough creatures.

Yeah, next time I make sure to bring me some potions of remove curse and see if it would help.

Trouble it, to remove the effect is a roll of Caster Level+d20 vs 11+caster level of the person that polymorphed you. Most Remove Curse potions are only going to have a caster level of 5 unless you had someone else make it. So if the caster was caster level 13+ you won't be able to remove it with potions.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by Mossa:

Yeah, next time I make sure to bring me some potions of remove curse and see if it would help.

Trouble it, to remove the effect is a roll of Caster Level+d20 vs 11+caster level of the person that polymorphed you. Most Remove Curse potions are only going to have a caster level of 5 unless you had someone else make it. So if the caster was caster level 13+ you won't be able to remove it with potions.

Sounds one would need to make the Swarm character to create its own potions or plan to use clones.

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Dogs can't read. (or at least thats what they want you to think.)

No. Dogs can't speak. IE perform the Verbal component of casting even from a Scroll. Maybe you meant to say they can't read aloud.

I meant what I said. Your dog can read? Mine tries to eat books.

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

I meant what I said. Your dog can read? Mine tries to eat books. :summer2019corgi:

Dunno if my dog can read. He sure can't tell me if he can. :3

[Selvokaz]

finish the game as a dog.. be the good boy that saved the universe.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Dogs can't read. (or at least thats what they want you to think.)

No. Dogs can't speak. IE perform the Verbal component of casting even from a Scroll. Maybe you meant to say they can't read aloud.

Scrolls do not have a verbal component. There is no component required for scrolls. All you have to do is know what triggers the scroll and this is specific to each scroll and baked in to the scroll when it is made. This how all magic items work. For example the trigger for potions is (basically always) the drinking of the potion. All the spellcasting is already done and a complete spell is stored on the magic item.

Technically if the trigger is anything a dog is capable of (such as touching a specific spot on the scroll) then it should be just as simple to cast as it was if you weren't polymorphed as long as you make the will save to keep your mental attributes. And even if you don't you might still be capable of it as you don't lose your actual knowledge.

[Hunny]

Originally posted by Selvokaz:

finish the game as a dog.. be the good boy that saved the universe.

Would have gone for that option if I were not stuck on a platform with the only way out was teleport, wish I could not do. ^^

[fox5s]

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

Scrolls do not have a verbal component. There is no component required for scrolls. All you have to do is know what triggers the scroll and this is specific to each scroll and baked in to the scroll when it is made. This how all magic items work. For example the trigger for potions is (basically always) the drinking of the potion. All the spellcasting is already done and a complete spell is stored on the magic item.

Incorrect. Scrolls bypass Material and Focus components. They do not bypass Verbal and Somatic components. To prove my point:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/scrolls

Quoted from that link:

"Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."

Note that it says nothing of replacing Verbal or Somatic components and that they can be disrupted in the same ways spells are. Like say... the miscast chance when deafened or the inability to cast while within a Silence spell. (Presumably the same hand holding a scroll can perform the Somatic components or reading scrolls gets EXTRA annoying)

All that said, I don't know exactly how much of this is reflected in WotR because they don't exactly follow PFSRD20 rules. But they did use those rules as a starting point.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

Scrolls do not have a verbal component. There is no component required for scrolls. All you have to do is know what triggers the scroll and this is specific to each scroll and baked in to the scroll when it is made. This how all magic items work. For example the trigger for potions is (basically always) the drinking of the potion. All the spellcasting is already done and a complete spell is stored on the magic item.

Incorrect. Scrolls bypass Material and Focus components. They do not bypass Verbal and Somatic components. To prove my point:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/scrolls

Quoted from that link:

"Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."

Note that it says nothing of replacing Verbal or Somatic components and that they can be disrupted in the same ways spells are. Like say... the miscast chance when deafened or the inability to cast while within a Silence spell. (Presumably the same hand holding a scroll can perform the Somatic components or reading scrolls gets EXTRA annoying)

All that said, I don't know exactly how much of this is reflected in WotR because they don't exactly follow PFSRD20 rules. But they did use those rules as a starting point.

Core rulebook page 458;

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

Note, while it sounds similar a spell completion action is not a spell cast, which is why it does not specifically need verbal and/or somatic and/or material components. All you need to do is perform the final gestures, words, etc, aka the spell triggers.

It's a problem with pathfinder's rules being sketchy and poorly written though (not a bash on pathfinder, all complex RPGs seem to be the same), it's easy to misunderstand, for example the fact you can suffer ASF would imply you still have a somatic component, except it isn't said that you do and those keywords are never mentioned in conjunction with scrolls, but at the same time you can't assume they're needed because then there is an issue with other magic items (and actually with scrolls themselves come to think of it since autocasting trap scrolls exist where the spell trigger is attempting to read the scroll).

[fox5s]

I mean, even Spell Completion says it right there and then you noted it: "the final gestures, words, and so on." That sounds like Verbal and Somatic components to me. (It also sounds suspiciously like how some of the prepared Arcane casters are described to cast spells in the first place but that's a different discussion.)

Even if you rule that it's a shortened version, a dog still can't form the right words or gestures. A bunch of magic items activate via command word which is difficult without a mouth used to saying words. Even so, I'm at least agreeing with your last part about it being a complex system easy to misunderstand.

And all this is rendered moot if I read the actual Baleful Polymorph description:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/baleful-polymorph/

Can't complete spells if you have lost the ability to cast spells. I mean, a resourceful player with a high UMD might then go into using that skill. And that brings us right back to this argument.

RAW can be a lot of fun to interpret. :D

[Babbles]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Potion of Remove Curse. Might need Break Enchantment.

Originally posted by Cutlass Jack:

Dogs can't read. (or at least thats what they want you to think.)

No. Dogs can't speak. IE perform the Verbal component of casting even from a Scroll. Maybe you meant to say they can't read aloud.

Fox, stop, please, just stop ...

Hint: It is the caster level inscribed into the scroll/potion that is the problem ...