Hypocritical Regill

[ShayRey]

I honestly feel surprised to not see many others point this out, as I feel like Regill is a hypocrite from more than a few scenes I've seen of him.

He's the character I feel to be the most hypocritical. He certainly has good ideas and is pragmatically evil in good ways. But man, there are moments I want to slap him for his stupid comments and hypocritical statements. For example, when he criticizes the Crusades failures before the assault on Drezen, specifically Irabeth.

Aside from how similar the two actually are in how they came to be where they are, there's also just the misplaced arrogance. His forces would have died to the Gargoyles if not for the intervention of said crusaders. Not to mention, he admitted himself the sight of the torture by the demons made him sick to his stomach. It feels like the game ignores how this just comes across hypocritical, which considering Regill's character of self-inspection is rather...annoying.

Not to mention, when he tricks you in the mission at the Hellknight Outpost. And even says not to expect him to not trick you again. Really feels like the idea of how much like a demon flies over his head. I don't remember if the game gives an option to point this out ever, but it would be nice if there was.

What makes it bad specifically for Regill, is he presents himself as a man who constantly re-evaluates himself and those around him. So the idea that he never has the thought cross his mind that his actions can be rather hypocritical is quite annoying. I dunno though, I might be overthinking this or I feel like I'm missing some part of him that makes this make sense.

[fauxpas]

Characters are only as good as the writing is, and evil characters requires better writing to be good.

With that said though, I'm not overly impressed by any of the companions quality.

[Gracey Face]

Other than him thinking the crusaders and their leadership are generally awful, which they are, I don't remember any specific complaints that he has which would be hypocritical. Just having them save you from a dangerous situation doesn't inherently make complaints about them hypocritical. What specific complaints are you referring to?

Also him misleading you isn't similar to being demonic. Demons are self serving whereas Regill is not for example. This is more of an issue with how reductive the alignment system is than with Regill as a character.

[sbudy]

I've actually felt that Regill's writing and voice acting were excellent in the sense that he was always meant to be an insufferable companion and he really drives you up the wall. The entire point of this character is the dilemma of whether to dump him or not and when. He's useful and he does not do anything strictly unforgivable but he's still infuriating.

And yes, he is also pretty hypocritical. I don't know if his crass comment on Irabeth's breakdown is necessarily hypocritical - he may have been killed by the Gargoyles, but they didn't break his spirit. Nevertheless, he is always going on and on about obedience to your superiors, accepting authority and keeping strict discipline. He's always quick to suggest harsh punishment for any sort of disobedience, but that apparently excludes himself as he undermines and manipulates you on every turn on his personal quests. You can say he just does not accept your authority and does not consider you as his superior, but you are.

Spoiler for the end of his personal quest -
On my Azata playthrough I've banished him right before going to Threshold and the secret ending. The game does give you the satisfaction of using him and then dumping him. It's even better than killing him. Just reading the secret ending epilogue slides and imaging his reaction for narrowly missing that due to his inability to be loyal to you. Get lost Regill, get lost.

[Soul]

I dont think he's hypocritical.... I mean when you first encounter him you can already deduce that he is evaluating you and judging you from the get go... and when he decides to help the commander he makes it clear that him and the hellknights are there to assist for as long as their goals align... but that ultimately they only answer to the law and their order...

as for him getting feeling sick from the chapel thing.... he makes it clear in a earlier conversation that he is constantly striving to make himself more like a construct... pretty much its an ongoing goal kinda thing... he doesnt come outright and say he is "without emotion" but strives to keep it in check constantly.... we dont see in game but for all we know he could have went off somewhere and gave himself lashes or something after lost chapel...

also the whole 5th crusade thing and mocking it... doesnt seem hypocritical... I mean the hellknights are the hellknights... they are constantly fighting the war... whereas the queen has had 5 crusades where she would unite armies together... waaay more resources than the hellknights could muster im pretty sure... and so after 4 crusades that gave big promises to only do very little or fail horribly.... the queen even admits how hard it is to keep the spirits up after all the failures and when your character comes along and performs a miracle her hands were pretty much tied into appointing you knight commander in order to unite people again... in the hellknights eyes the crusades have been nothing but an undisciplined chaotic mess...

[Raikon]

There are quite a few scenes that I dont like regill in. I particularly dislike him admiring the poeple in blackwater. Still I dont think they made him hypocritical either. I think the writers for him did a good job of sticking to his personality and morals. I think if you look at regil as a person who hates waste, then every decision he makes will make more sense to you.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I find his sitting with the succubus kind of bizarre, especially since he gets angry if you play along with him.

[Raikon]

Hes a melee fighter. Most of the succubus in the game use bows. I find it pretty practical that he uses the oppurtunity to close the distance.

[sbudy]

Originally posted by Soul:

when he decides to help the commander he makes it clear that him and the hellknights are there to assist for as long as their goals align... but that ultimately they only answer to the law and their order...

That's not the way military campaign works and certainly not the way the Hellknights operate themselves. They have a strict hierarchy and there are no loose ends hovering freely around "as long as their goal align". According to the deserters from Trever's unit, even their hired help are practically slaves. So the fact that Regill decides (personally, without consulting any other Hellknight) how far the Hellknights commitment to the Crusade and the commander goes while demanding absolute obedience (to the commander and the Hellknights) otherwise is pretty hypocritical IMO.

Edit: moreover, what Regill actually does is not "assisting as long as his goal align". If the Crusade no longer serves the Hellknights goals, there's a lawful, straightforward procedure of terminating the partnership. He does not bother with any of that. He does not even give you a warning you're straying (at least in the mythical routes I've done - all the good ones + trickster). Instead, he's pretending to be loyal and deceiving you to get his way and put you in the Hellknights mercy. He'd immediately execute any of his Hellknights for this kind of disloyalty, and he probably tells you that himself if you're going for killing him at the end of his last personal quest (I never did). He just believes that his superior intellect and judgement allow him privileges he does not give to anyone else. Hence, hypocritical.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by sbudy:

That's not the way military campaign works and certainly not the way the Hellknights operate themselves. They have a strict hierarchy and there are no loose ends hovering freely around "as long as their goal align". According to the deserters from Trever's unit, even their hired help are practically slaves. So the fact that Regill decides (personally, without consulting any other Hellknight) how far the Hellknights commitment to the Crusade and the commander goes while demanding absolute obedience (to the commander and the Hellknights) otherwise is pretty hypocritical IMO.

There's no hypocrisy here. Additionally it might depend on how you play the quest through but when I did it the rest of the Hellknights were in on Regill's "competence test" and assisted him in it so obviously they were consulted.

Edit: moreover, what Regill actually does is not "assisting as long as his goal align". If the Crusade no longer serves the Hellknights goals, there's a lawful, straightforward procedure of terminating the partnership. He does not bother with any of that. He does not even give you a warning you're straying (at least in the mythical routes I've done - all the good ones + trickster). Instead, he's pretending to be loyal and deceiving you to get his way and put you in the Hellknights mercy. He'd immediately execute any of his Hellknights for this kind of disloyalty, and he probably tells you that himself if you're going for killing him at the end of his last personal quest (I never did). He just believes that his superior intellect and judgement allow him privileges he does not give to anyone else. Hence, hypocritical.

What are you talking about? As in what actions does Regill take that caused you to type this section. I have only played through it the once.

Also your mention of following a "lawful procedure" implies you have the wrong idea about what being lawful in D&D means. Lawful in D&D and so pathfinder means sticking stringently to whatever principles you follow, not to any legal procedures in an area you are in (though if they do not contradict lawful characters will normally also do the latter).

For example if you are a member of an organisation dedicated to destroying the worldwound allying with another group while they are working towards goals that also serve your own and then immediately and efficiently abandoning them if they stop or destroying them if they start to work against you would be lawful because all of your actions are working towards the goal of your organisation which is destroying the worldwound.

[sbudy]

Lawful people are not supposed to lie and deceive, at least not knowingly and directly the way Regill does ("We're going to save the Hellknights, it's urgent, come on" ---> "Oh, no. There's never any real risk, we're just testing you"). Regill lies and omits facts that may risk other people life when it suits him and punishes others for minor infractions like leaving their post to save his ass (Yaker). You don't want to call this hypocritical behavior, fine. It's not exactly lawful the way I understand the alignment (but then again, the game obviously has a vastly different interpretation for "lawful" than mine, Regill is just a minor example really).

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by sbudy:

Lawful people are not supposed to lie and deceive.

That's not actually true. There is no action that a lawful person is not supposed to do. Lawful or not lawful comes down entirely to following the tenets of the belief structure and/or organisation you are part of in D&D/PF.

[sbudy]

There are tenets of belief for every god and every alignment.
According to this flawed logic demons can be lawful too, when they follow the tenets structure and/or organisation of Deskari/Baphomet/Lamashtu/Nocticula's cults. Any loyal Baphomet follower - say Hosilla - is lawful according to this absurd definition.

Edit: plus, Regill isn't following any "tenets of belief" when he's lying to you other than his personal (mistaken) belief that he knows best about everything so he has the right to judge you and get rid of you if you're found lacking.

[Hieronymus]

Regill is one of if not the best companion in the game. Comes up with realistic tactics and never misses an opportunity to point out how weak the bellyaching crusaders are. And hes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ right, the crusaders regularly switch sides, break down after a single defeat or just outright lose morale if they aren't constantly handheld by the commander.

Especially his comment towards Nurah when she goes on a rant how bad she had it and justifies joining the demons was particularly satisfying to read.

No since Arcanum I've always hated Gnomes and went out of my way to not interact or brutally kill them, but Regill won me over.

[Soul]

Originally posted by sbudy:

Originally posted by Soul:

when he decides to help the commander he makes it clear that him and the hellknights are there to assist for as long as their goals align... but that ultimately they only answer to the law and their order...

That's not the way military campaign works and certainly not the way the Hellknights operate themselves. They have a strict hierarchy and there are no loose ends hovering freely around "as long as their goal align". According to the deserters from Trever's unit, even their hired help are practically slaves. So the fact that Regill decides (personally, without consulting any other Hellknight) how far the Hellknights commitment to the Crusade and the commander goes while demanding absolute obedience (to the commander and the Hellknights) otherwise is pretty hypocritical IMO.

Edit: moreover, what Regill actually does is not "assisting as long as his goal align". If the Crusade no longer serves the Hellknights goals, there's a lawful, straightforward procedure of terminating the partnership. He does not bother with any of that. He does not even give you a warning you're straying (at least in the mythical routes I've done - all the good ones + trickster). Instead, he's pretending to be loyal and deceiving you to get his way and put you in the Hellknights mercy. He'd immediately execute any of his Hellknights for this kind of disloyalty, and he probably tells you that himself if you're going for killing him at the end of his last personal quest (I never did). He just believes that his superior intellect and judgement allow him privileges he does not give to anyone else. Hence, hypocritical.

actually when I met him it seems pretty clear in the beginning what his goals are... he openly mocks the idea of a "5th crusade"... and how he heard about the main character who was able to turn the tide with the wardstone issue and was interested in the rise of a new um... forget what he called it... but like a new piece on the chess board kinda thing.... and he also boldly claims how his order doesnt answer to even the queen herself....

putting all that together it looks like to me he is only interested in you and what your capable of... if he really was gonna follow the command structure then the chain of command would be the knight commander... which answers to... the queen.... she is the only one who has the authority to discharge our MC afterall.. she appointed them to that position... and before Drezen he doesnt make a decision to stay for the whole crusade only help assist with retaking it for a tactical advantage for the hellknights to regain some outposts deeper in the worldwound...

and in the beginning when you rescue them from the gargoyles if you pass the perception checks when he's giving orders he's watching your reactions... measuring you... a person that is able to perform miracles and a strong power to push back demons... while the crusaders and all might think its a blessing from the gods... he is more reserved in judgement... no one knows how or why you have this power and im sure he would wanna make sure that you are a asset and not a trojan horse i'd imagine...

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by sbudy:

According to this flawed logic demons can be lawful too, when they follow the tenets

It's not flawed logic. It is flat out how the rules work. As for oddities like this the demon itself can be chaotic (somehow) but if you worship a demon if you perfectly mimic its actions/beleifs you would actually be lawful as you're sticking to your beleifs, even though the demon itself is chaotic and most people would call the follower chaotic as that is intuitive.

It's a basic problem with D&D's alignment system. It doesn't really work. In practical terms you're just supposed to go with whatever your DM says to get around oddities like this.

Also Regill is following the order of the godclaw because he is a hellknight. Godclaw is all about eliminating chaos.


It's better to think of the axis as being chaotic/evil is self serving and lawful/good is selflessness. It's not the way the rules are written to work and it too doesn't reliably work but it is more fitting than any other way of trying to interpret it.