For those who have problems with hard fights...Shatter them all

[Dave]

I know most of you already know about this, but personally I ignored this mechanic for too long, and often i found myself save scumming a lot of fights where all my party could do was Miss, miss, miss, miss, and then die to a double 20 from the enemy.

Shatter defense main requirement is 6 bab. Meaning level 6-7 for any Martial character. Meaning Gray Garrison, Gargoyles, Drezen all with flat footed enemies, bosses included....a walk in the park.

My MC got it by level 7 (rogue). Seelah as full BAB carried the group through gray Garrison.

How to activate it?

get a persuasion focused char. MC, or Seelah, or Ember, or Daeran. Any of them works.

Single target intimidate and/or aoe Dazzling Display (also Mythic if you wanna do something else during your turn).

NO Spell Resiatnce
NO Saving Throw
works on boses even

The summoned boss inside Drezen Citadel has 46 defense to intimidate (on Unfair).

With a heavy Persuasion build you reach him with a minimum of +39 persuasion, meaning you shaken him on a 7 roll. And I didnt count all possible buff you could get, for even more than that.
If you take 1 lvl of Thug you can even fear him.

I understand that there are things like

Frightful Aspect ( lvl 15, or trickster lvl 13 time limited)
Dirge Bard ( level 8 limited rounds/song)
Trickster Persuasion Trick (level 10-11 specific Mythic Path)

Intimidate/Dazzling Display work starting from level 1, are unlimited usage and work with every class, just need a couple of talents (boosting the skill), and points in CHA/WIS (acolyte) and the game will become so much easier

P.S.
A shaken enemy has -2 on attack, skill check, saving throws, meaning even without Shatter Defenses it is still worth using for spells with DC, or to help the tank

[MjKorz]

If you can't understand what's happening in the screenshots, it doesn't mean someone is trolling, it just means you lack the game knowledge to understand what's actually happening. Everything you need to know is shown in the combat log, but you have outed yourself as someone who can't even read the said combat log which I admit is pretty impressive.

[Max Kojote, M.SC]

I'm going to be fun ruiner, sorry Mj.

He's referring to the ability Touch of Law. If you're unaware of it, Touch of Law makes the target's next roll an 11. Always an 11. No save. It's supposed to be a willing, but as it's classified as a buff, all enemies in the game are willing. They're avoiding a natural 1. What could go wrong?

[TOLYAN JIGAN]

>allowing it to treat all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round as if the natural d20 roll resulted in an 11
1. Why should the enemy take an 11 die roll when he knows for sure that it's a failure and he'd rather try to roll 20? If it's not a bug, then it's definitely a grey zone.
2. You need a cleric, not everyone want to use him.

[Max Kojote, M.SC]

Originally posted by TOLYAN JIGAN:

>allowing it to treat all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round as if the natural d20 roll resulted in an 11
1. Why should the enemy take an 11 die roll when he knows for sure that it's a failure and he'd rather try to roll 20? If it's not a bug, then it's definitely a grey zone.

The enemy technically should not know that it would be a failure. The real argument should be why an enemy knows that a buff is a buff and to accept it, but that's an argument to be made to an actual DM, not an algorithm.

It's not really a bug. It's more that it's the consequence of how they coded the AI. Enemies can legitimately accept buffs from players in the actual tabletop. It probably wouldn't work for something like Touch of Law but they absolutely could if they were especially stupid. However in WotR, all enemies are that especially stupid, apparently.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by TOLYAN JIGAN:

1. Why should the enemy take an 11 die roll

Because technically it is a buff as it forces a roll value higher than the expected average value. Enemies are willing to accept targeted buffs in this game: Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc. Touch of Law is no exception.

Originally posted by TOLYAN JIGAN:

You need a cleric, not everyone want to use him.

Clerics are a part of a good and balanced party :)

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Max Kojote, BIE:

I'm going to be fun ruiner, sorry Mj.

He's referring to the ability Touch of Law. If you're unaware of it, Touch of Law makes the target's next roll an 11. Always an 11. No save. It's supposed to be a willing, but as it's classified as a buff, all enemies in the game are willing. They're avoiding a natural 1. What could go wrong?

In which case, he is abusing a bug.

[Dave]

So to clear things up, and i have no problems in admitting i didn't know about this ....let's call it by its name...exploit, cos I don't know if it is actually a bug.

I started my discussions with a clear point

Make possible for EVERY class/build/party to beat hard/impossible fight where enemies have untouchable AC, and you are there hoping for a natural 20 to hit

And the the Troll comes, and, without explaining the ability, but showing screenshots, argue that with 2 specific classes (Law Cleric AND DC caster) you can have the same result i described just with spells.

So we went from a way for every player, no matter their party composition choices, to gain an advantage on difficult fights........to a guy who counter with not 1, but even 2 specific classes, with specific builds to achieve the same result (easier fights)

What can I say........ok, and I am actually happy i was able to play the game without exploiting bugs or grey areas.

[Max Kojote, M.SC]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by Max Kojote, BIE:

I'm going to be fun ruiner, sorry Mj.

He's referring to the ability Touch of Law. If you're unaware of it, Touch of Law makes the target's next roll an 11. Always an 11. No save. It's supposed to be a willing, but as it's classified as a buff, all enemies in the game are willing. They're avoiding a natural 1. What could go wrong?

In which case, he is abusing a bug.

It's not a bug though. Enemies can be willing creatures for buffs. Hell, you could probably do this in tabletop with a good enough Bluff to lie to the enemy. Or have a Bard with Glibness lie for you. Then again if you have a Bard with Glibness they could probably convince the enemies that they're the leader. Probably.

Joking aside. I'd put it as a grey area. It's not really a bug because it does work as it should. Enemies are creatures and thus can be willing. Touch of Law has no save, no attack or anything associated with it. These two combine to create a beautifully terrible combo. Code-wise, you'd need to put in exceptions for things like Touch of Law to address it and then figure out what circumstances a creature would be vs would not be willing. (I'd lead to Always Unwilling but that's just me as a DM, other DMs might disagree). Either way, fixing and testing the fix would probably be more effort than it's worth.

I would define it as an exploit though. Since it's taking an advantage of the limited enemy AI. But that's not really saying that much.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Dave:

i have no problems in admitting

Like I said before:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Don't worry, you don't have to admit anything since it is immediately obvious that you don't know anything.

Now, put on your big red nose and repeat your "expert" opinion on how Shatter Defenses + Dazzling Display are superior to arcane spells.

[Dave]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Dave:

i have no problems in admitting

Like I said before:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Don't worry, you don't have to admit anything since it is immediately obvious that you don't know anything.

Now, put on your big red nose and repeat your "expert" opinion on how Shatter Defenses + Dazzling Display are superior to arcane spells.

Read the whole post and not the single words in a bigger context and MAYBE you'll do something that will help everyone...that is...shut up

You're a busing an exploit with 2 specific classes with specific build. I don't even understand why you're writing in this discussion......no sense really

Let's agree to disagree.
I like to play legit, without exploiting grey areas/bugs, and giving option for every class/build in the game

You like to play with specific classes/builds and exploiting grey areas, bad AI, bad coding

To each their own i'd say

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Dave:

Read the whole post

No one is obligated to explain anything to someone who pretends to know better. You made some claims, those claims were utterly annihilated. Now you have to wear the clown shoes. Just don't delete the thread, lol. It's solid entertainment for other people, trust me on this.

[Icedfate]

korz obviously knows the game mechanics. . .it's just. you could be a little nicer about it,

it's frustrating when someone doesn't know all the stuff and you come in and say "you're just playing wrong. you can do this this and this . . .if you learn to play the game right"


example : earlier in this thread, you said "martials can't use fear against mind immune enemies, like undead, but casters can bypass the immunity "
but then didn't go on to explain "how", exactly, they do that.
I assume it's from a feat or a mythic ability or something.

but instead of just saying you should do and have this this and this, maybe explain "how" someone goes about doing that.

like in my thread you said "50 DC on spells is laughable in the endgame" and then went on to say i ought to be able to make an illusionist with 100 DC.

i have no idea how that's done, but i have no doubt that you have done it.

for clarity, i saw a build that ends up with 76 DC and they had a specific setup with a specfic race with specific racial anilities and specific feats and a specific mythic path with specific endgame gear to achieve the 76. . and then you come in say it should be 100 and yeah. .

anyhoo. i'm just on core, so i'm gonna just finsih this playthrough and try to build better next time. maybe i'll try "hard" mode, maybe not

[Icedfate]

aand, i think i realized what's happening in those screenshots korz posted. he's using touch of law, which forces them to always roll an 11 on their saves, so as long as you can raise your DC hugh enough that they fail on 11, it's 100% success rate.

I will say, i think that's a broken mechanic and it's a bug exploit, because the description says that it's only supposed to work on a "willing" creature, so i don't think the intended use of it was ever to be able to touch an enemy and force them to be unable to roll higher than 11.

i never would have thought to try it, because it seemed like it's to use on your allies and i was thinking what is the point , then?

being able to use it on enemies seems overpowered and broken AF.

but then, of course, korz just lets people argue with him back and forth and sit there smugly responding, "you would understand, if you knew how to play the game or read the combat logs", instead of just explaining it

[Dave]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

example : earlier in this thread, you said "martials can't use fear against mind immune enemies, like undead, but casters can bypass the immunity "
but then didn't go on to explain "how", exactly, they do that.
I assume it's from a feat or a mythic ability or something.

Agree on 100% of what you say.

Just explaining this. I stopped reading that guy post after the 3rd screenshot without any explaining so maybe i missed this part.

You only need 1 level of sorcerer (usually crossblooded) to get undead bloodline that will make you affect undead with your mind-spells/abilities, and maybe serpentine bloodline to do the same with animals.

As for the high DC i guess it is by abusing the mythic ability Expanded Arsenal and getting all spell foci, greater and mythic

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Dave:

But anyway...talking about 100% debuffs on enemies, on Unfair, especially early levels, just shows you have no idea what you're talking about, so i'll stop wasting time answering your fantasies.

Just a hint for the future, when you'll reply another post without a clue, at least read them.

And again....good luck passing the saving throws of enemies and bosses on hard/unfair at early level (1-15), without gear and levels, where the BEST you could do was show a screenshot (you clearly didn't understand) with a 50% success spell, calling it 100%.

For once it would be nice to speak with people who have at least a base knowledge of the game, instead of speaking with trolls who play story mode, and fish google for wrong screenshot to post.

Oh how the tune has changed lmao.