heightened or persistent metamagic

[Icedfate]

I just took peristent metamagic with nenio and i noticed that a persistent phantasmal killer has 2 less points of DC than a heightened PK.

i looked and the description of heighten says "unlike other metamagics, heightened increases the caster level and the DC"

i tired putting both persistent and heightened on it and it still has 2 less. i guess heightened doesn't stack with persistent (?)

my main question is it worth it to take persistent to make enemies roll saves with disadvantage, but they also technically get an extra +2 against it?
like mathematically, is a DC 34 but they have to reroll a successful, better than a DC 36 but they only have to roll once?

[Soul]

think of persistent metamagic like the Azata superpower where enemies have to roll twice to the save of the spell.... something like phantasmal killer for instance requires a will save and fort save... normally you cast it and if they pass either check pretty much it looses its effectiveness.... with persistent metamagic you make the enemy reroll twice and take worst result...

as for heighten and persistant stacking... you cant heighten a spell to same level as other metamagics... like a persistant increases spell by 2 levels... so you cant "heighten" it to make it same level... like again phantasmal killer is a 4th level spell.... persisted metamagic increases it to a level 6 spell slot.... you cant heighten it cause its already at level 6th slot.... but you could later on when you have the slots... put both persistent AND heighten metamagic on it to allow you to fill up 7th level slots and 8th level slots... likewise you could do similar with other metamagics too.... haste with extend metamagic and heightened for instance... on a sorcerer that would mean you could slot haste from levels 3-9 spell slots with level 4 and above all double duration from extend...

[Korelis]

Persistent is usually better.

If, before metamagic, the enemy would pass the DC with a roll of 3 or less, +2 DC is better than persistent. Also if they require a roll of 19 or 20 to pass then +2 DC is again better. Otherwise (when the minimum roll needed is 4-17), persistent is better.

Another thing to consider is that you can take favorite metamagic for persistent to reduce the cost by 1 level. In that case, you'd be comparing persistent against +1 DC, and +1 DC is only better than persistent if the minimum roll needed is 1, 2, or 20 (and the difference on 2 and 20 are negligible).

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

i looked and the description of heighten says "unlike other metamagics, heightened increases the caster level and the DC"

Heighten does not increase the caster level of the spell, it increases the spell level of the spell AND increases the DC of the spell. Caster level != spell level, because caster level is used to scale or determine the effects of the spell and is part of the spell penetration caster level checks.

Originally posted by Icedfate:

i tired putting both persistent and heightened on it and it still has 2 less. i guess heightened doesn't stack with persistent (?)

Heighten stacks with persistent, but not in the way you think. Heighten: for every +1 increment of spell level you gain a +1 increment of spell DC. Persistent: produces a spell level increment of +2, but provides no spell DC increment.

You can use both metamagics together and their effects will stack. For example, if you apply Persistent Spell metamagic to a spell and then additionally apply Heighten metamagic on top to increase the spell level by an extra +1, the effects will stack: the spell will become persistent and will obtain additional +1 DC while having its spell level increased by +3 total (e.g. level 6 spell becomes a level 9 spell).

Originally posted by Icedfate:

my main question is it worth it to take persistent to make enemies roll saves with disadvantage, but they also technically get an extra +2 against it?
like mathematically, is a DC 34 but they have to reroll a successful, better than a DC 36 but they only have to roll once?

I'm too lazy to use more advanced tools, so you will have to bear with my paint skills.

Consider a model scenario with the following limitation: Target saving throw bonus =< Spell DC - 2

Saving throw rule: if the saving throw result matches or beats the DC of the effect, then the effect is reduced as described by the effect.

x - probability to beat the enemy save before applying any metamagics
x = [0.05, 0.1, 0.15, 0.2, 0.25, ..., 0.95]

f(x) - probability to beat the enemy save with +2 spell DC
f(x) =< 0.95

g(x) - probability to beat the enemy save with Persistent Spell metamagic, assuming no advantages on beating the save
g(x) < 1

Persistent Spell metamagic: enemy rolls the saving throw vs spell DC with all advantages/disadvantages included and IF the saving throw is a success, enemy rolls the saving throw again with all advantages/disadvantages included.

f(x) = x + 0.1
g(x) = x + (1-x)*x

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2968655291

Values of x for which f(x) > g(x): x = 0.05 and x = 0.1.
Values of x for which g(x) > f(x): x = all other values.

Conclusion: persistent spell metamagic is superior to a flat +2 spell DC increase when your initial probability to beat the save (before applying the metamagic) is at least 0.15. In game terms this means that your spell DC must be at least 4 points higher than the enemy saving throw bonus.

What happens when the saving throw bonus exceeds Spell DC - 2? Persistent Spell metamagic performs better, because it ALWAYS creates an increment in probability to beat the save while a Spell DC increment of +2 may be insufficient to produce an increment in probability to beat the save.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Korelis:

if they require a roll of 19 or 20 to pass then +2 DC is again better.

With a flat +2 spell DC increment, the probability to beat the save caps out at 0.95. Persistent metamagic caps out at 0.9975.

When the target passes the spell DC check on a roll of 19-20:
Base probability to beat the save = 0.9
Probability to beat the save with a flat +2 spell DC increment = 0.95
Probability to beat the save with persistent spell = 0.9 + (1-0.9)*0.9 = 0.99

When the target passes the spell DC check on a roll of 20 only:
Base probability to beat the save = 0.95
Probability to beat the save with a flat +2 spell DC increment = 0.95
Probability to beat the save with persistent spell = 0.95 + (1-0.95)*0.95 = 0.9975

Thus, persistent spell is better even in those scenarios. Only at base probabilities of beating the save equal to 0.05 and 0.1 is the flat +2 spell DC increase better.

Originally posted by Korelis:

Persistent is usually better.
Another thing to consider is that you can take favorite metamagic for persistent to reduce the cost by 1 level.

There is no such thing as favorite metamagic: persistent spell. It does not exist in the game.

Originally posted by Soul:

think of persistent metamagic like the Azata superpower where enemies have to roll twice to the save of the spell

No, this is wrong. Advantage = you get an extra roll and then take the better result, but that's not how persistent spell works.

Persistent spell kicks in ONLY when the enemy succeeds on their saving throw, it does not simply force the target to roll one more time. Let's say you already have 1 advantage on beating the enemy save from Favorable Magic, you cast a spell on the target, the target is forced to roll their save twice and take the worse result and succeeds on both rolls. Then and only then will persistent metamagic kick in and it will force the target to make the save again, but since the caster has Favorable Magic, the target is forced to roll the save twice again and take the worst result.

Persistent spell is much more powerful than a simple advantage on beating the save, because it effectively doubles your number of advantages on beating the enemy save (or provides a minimum of 1, if you have none).

[Icedfate]

specifically in my game, right now. i have both heighten and persistent metamagic.
nenio just hit level 17

PK is 4th level spell.
cast from a 4th level slot, my PK has a DC of 35 (10base+4spell level+11 from 29 int + 2 from ring + 2from staff + 2 from spell focus +2 from mythic spell focus +2 from demongraft)
if i heighten it to 5th, it has a DC of 36
heigtened to 6th and it has a DC of 37

if i use persistent spell, it puts it into a 6th and has a DC of 35
with heighten, it's 37
with persistent, it's 35
with heighten + persistent, it's 35.
so persistent + heighten doesn't stack?

i can apply BOTH metamagics to it, but it it seems that heighten no longer gives the extra bonus DC. it still only has 35.

normally, heighten out of a 6th is making it 37, but putting persistent on it, drops it to the DC it has at 2 levels lower at 4th


by my understanding, persistent, does not raise the DC, but heighten does. however, heightened + persistent does not. apparently l heighten does not stack with persistent (?).




now
i do understand that heighten IS necessary, to cast it from a 7th or 8th slot. persistent isma flat increase of 2 spell levels. heighten lets you oncrease it as much as you want.

without heighten, i would only be able to cast it from a 6th slot and nowhere else.

here's the thing, even thought heighten is mandatory for a,7th level slot

. I'm able to use heighten to put the spell into the 7th, 8th and 9th(but obviously, i'm using my 9th to cast weird instead.)

i used heigthen and in the
7th = DC 38
8th = DC 39
9th = DC 40

persistent, normally wouldn't let me put it into the 7th and 8th, but heighten + persistent does. however, heightened + persistent has
7th = 36
8th = 37
9th = 38

so heighten is allowing me to cast it out of the higher slots, but persistent is not allowing me to raise the DC (?).
the heighten is stacking in that it's allowingmme to cast the persistent spell from the higher slot, but at the same time, not stacking, because it's no longer adding the bonus DC to the spell(?)

every spell i do heighten + persistent has 2 points less DC than just heightened.

EDIT : i'm looking and what i guess is happening is that the 6th level persistent, is using the 4th level version from a 6th level slot, while heigthen to 6th turns it into a 6th level spell.
heighten + persistent is still using the 4th level version
using heigthen to cast it from a 7th, turns it into a 7th level spell, but heighten + persistent is using heighten to turn it into 5th level and then casting it from the 7th slot. persistent is using my 5th level heightened version as the baseline and then sitcking it into the 7th level slot, so the heightend spell is a 7th, but the heightened +persistent is actually a 5th being cast from a 7th.

I AM OKAY with that, if mathematically making the roll at disadvantage is better than that extra 2 DC.
what i was asking is if it was better?

again, i'm gonna be casting weird out of the 9th level slot, which has a DC 40.
so the 9th level slot is already spoken for
which is better?
aoe at 40 or
single target 38 at disadvantage?
regardless of the math, i think i'll pick the aoe, because it's aoe.

the reason i started this whole thing is because
the thing is in the feats selections, instead of persistent, I "could" take another spell focus, say, evocation or enchantment , which would then stack an additinal +1 DC onto my PK and my weird spell from mythic expanded arsenal, as well as adding a +1 to whatever other skchool i picked, so this is actually a difference of +3
it would turn my level 8 PK into a 40, while the heightened persistent one is 37.
is forcing them to roll at disadvantage at 37, better than 40? i.e. a difference of +3?

perhaps it was a waste if time to ask this, because yeah, if i'm just stacking flat +xx onto it, the higher the numbers get, it's gonna be diminishing returns, but forcing them to roll twice and take the lower result is obviously better when you get to nat 20's
where persistent really shines is in forcing them to reroll those nat 20's they keep getting to automatically save. . .like , it's ridiculous how often that happens. it seems to happen at least once every encounter, they roll a nat 20 against it..



side note : i just realized, i took spell specialization as one of my wizard bonus feats and have been using that on PK and just discovered, it was doing nothing because it only increases "variable effects", not DC. .. . wasted feat pick

EDIT 2 : now my next conundrum is what cleric or druid spell to take from her loremaster secret. . .

[Icedfate]

i know i rambled on , so for clarity. i'm posting this separately.

i was thinking theoretically.
i could have been taking spell focus at every feat pick, this whole time just taking spell focus from every school and then stacking them all onto illusion through mythic expanded arsenal.

but persistent metamagic uses up one of those feat picks. I was debating interally if forciing the disadvantage on that save is worth it to have an overall lower DC.

i mean, it's a diffence of 1 because 1 less spell focus feat,, plus the difference of 2 from applying the metamagic .

but then at these higher numbers above 40+, do i actually "need" it to be that high to be consistently successful, or is it just a diminished return?

[MjKorz]

You don't understand what heighten does. It provides a +1 spell DC bonus per level increase of a spell. This stacks properly with persistent metamagic.

What you want to achieve: increase the spell DC +2 by via heighten by increasing the spell level by +2 and apply persistent metamagic and somehow end up with a level 6 spell. That's not how it works, you have to pay the spell level increase "price" for both metamagics separately: +2 spell level from heighten and +2 spell level from persistent. Then your level 4 spell becomes a 4+2+2=8th level spell that is persistent and has a +2 spell DC increment.

Taking expanded arsenal illusion on Nenio will not work, because her starting spell focus in illusion interferes with it. This is why Nenio can never be a good illusionist.

Against single targets, persistent PK will perform better than Weird due to persistency.

If you're using Nenio as a pure Illusionist, there are no good spells to take via Loremaster, because all Illusion spells are arcane.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

specifically in my game, right now. i have both heighten and persistent metamagic.
nenio just hit level 17

PK is 4th level spell.
cast from a 4th level slot, my PK has a DC of 35 (10base+4spell level+11 from 29 int + 2 from ring + 2from staff + 2 from spell focus +2 from mythic spell focus +2 from demongraft)
if i heighten it to 5th, it has a DC of 36
heigtened to 6th and it has a DC of 37

if i use persistent spell, it puts it into a 6th and has a DC of 35
with heighten, it's 37
with persistent, it's 35
with heighten + persistent, it's 35.
so persistent + heighten doesn't stack?

i can apply BOTH metamagics to it, but it it seems that heighten no longer gives the extra bonus DC. it still only has 35.

normally, heighten out of a 6th is making it 37, but putting persistent on it, drops it to the DC it has at 2 levels lower at 4th


by my understanding, persistent, does not raise the DC, but heighten does. however, heightened + persistent does not. apparently l heighten does not stack with persistent (?).

metamagics dont increase the DC of spells... other than heighten of course... it just takes up a higher level spell slot normally.... like level 6 spell with favorite bolster, empower, maximize would be a level 9th spell but with a 6th level DC....

as for heighten and persistent... they DO stack... just look at your math and how they work...

with heighten, it's 37.... because you raised it 2 levels through heighten its DC increased by 2...
with persistent, it's 35... because it doesnt increase the DC its using your normal level 4 spell DC....
with heighten + persistent, it's 35.... because its being treated as a 6th level spell already through persistent giving it 2 spell levels.... heighten that you apply to this doesnt work because its not increasing its level at all cause persistent is... thats why its missing the 2 DC that it would have normally...

and if you look at your math for the 7th through 9th its doing the same... persistent is making the 4th level spell as a 6th level by adding 2 levels... and your persistent and heighten combo beyond 6th level is calculating it based off that.... thats why your DC's are all 2 levels lower than if you just used heighten alone on the spell...

but like Mjkorz said before... persistent metamagic is essentially giving you about a +4 advantage to your spell DC anyways by having enemies reroll twice for saves and take worst result.... so while it may show up on your character sheet like what you posted... think of it instead as...

if i use persistent spell, it puts it into a 6th and has a DC of 35 (+4 variable)
with heighten, it's 37
with persistent, it's 35 (+4 variable... making it about 39 value)
with heighten + persistent, it's 35. (+4 variable... making it about 39 value)

i used heigthen and in the
7th = DC 38
8th = DC 39
9th = DC 40

persistent, normally wouldn't let me put it into the 7th and 8th, but heighten + persistent does. however, heightened + persistent has
7th = 36 (+4 variable... making it about 40 value)
8th = 37 (+4 variable... making it about 41 value)
9th = 38 (+4 variable... making it about 42 value)

[Korelis]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

With a flat +2 spell DC increment, the probability to beat the save caps out at 0.95.

You're right, I failed to take autosuccess on natural 20 into account.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

There is no such thing as favorite metamagic: persistent spell. It does not exist in the game.

I forgot that was added by a mod, I never used persistent in my vanilla run.

[hilburnashua]

I just knew this tread was going to turn into a statistics class. :)

[anfindel13]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

I just knew this tread was going to turn into a statistics class. :)

It makes my eyes bleed and my head hurt.

My Kryptonite.

[Icedfate]

thanks. . .i kind of worked it out on my own anyway. i still never did the math, except that i know this. forcing an enemy to reroll a nat 20 is huge.


regardless of the actual DC, whatever her DC is that's irrelevant.
the thing wa sjust that persistent will always be 2 less than a heightened and i get it, because heightened increases SL by 2, increasing the DC along with it, while persistent keeps it as the same SL, but forces you to use a higher level slot to cast it.

i just got confused why combining the 2 metamiagics doesn't combine the effects to get the boost from both of them.

the last part of my thing was me wieghing whether or not it was worth it to choose to not take persistent and instead take another spell focus feat, so that i can then take mythic expanded arsenal.

and now i'm confused by a respones above.
I was led to believe that expanded arsenal allows you to take spell focus from other schools and then pile them on to your chosen school, such as illusion, but now i'm being told it doesn't?

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

I was led to believe that expanded arsenal allows you to take spell focus from other schools and then pile them on to your chosen school, such as illusion, but now i'm being told it doesn't?

You cannot have Spell Focus in a school you want to "expand". Nenio starts with Spell Focus Illusion, so she cannot use Expanded Arsenal Illusion. She can use EA for other schools, like enchantment. Since she is a fox and foxes get inherent kitsune magic for +1 enchantment spell DC, Nenio is best suited to being an enchantress, not an illusionist.

[Icedfate]

so, then, i could take expanded arsenal enchantment and then her spell focuses from illusion would pile on to enchantment , but not vice versa?
or you mean, that i can only take EA in a school that i have never taken a spell focus feat in and because nenio starts out having already taken spell focus illusion , it forever locks her out of EA illusion?
so theoretically, if i made a character and took the first spell focus feat in every school, then i would compltely lock myself out of expanded arsenal?

and then, say, if i wanted a specific illusion specialist with the maximum DC, i would have to instead not take any spell focus illusion and instead take the ones from all the other school and then take expanded arsenal illusion? kind of like an "inverted illusonist"?

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

i could take expanded arsenal enchantment and then her spell focuses from illusion would pile on to enchantment

Correct, but only if you don't have Spell Focus Enchantment.

Originally posted by Icedfate:

or you mean, that i can only take EA in a school that i have never taken a spell focus feat in and because nenio starts out having already taken spell focus illusion , it forever locks her out of EA illusion?

This is also correct.

Originally posted by Icedfate:

so theoretically, if i made a character and took the first spell focus feat in every school, then i would compltely lock myself out of expanded arsenal?

Correct.

Originally posted by Icedfate:

and then, say, if i wanted a specific illusion specialist with the maximum DC, i would have to instead not take any spell focus illusion and instead take the ones from all the other school and then take expanded arsenal illusion?

Correct.