Help understanding when (if ever) Seize the Moment is a better pick than Outflank?

[Nazkai]

As in title just trying to understand the best use cases for Seize the moment or if Outflank is better in your experience?

[Drake]

I always pick both. outflank is mandatory because you should always be flanking. Seize the moment is important if you position yourself correctly, becasue everytime a single char crits, all melee chars around the target will attack, and if they crit, it will snowball (because if you have seize the moment, you have more than one AoO because of the req).

[Nazkai]

How about for like Archer companions or mercs? Wouldn't they be better off with Seize due to rarely if ever flanking?

[B Unit]

The only thing Seize the Moment does that Outflank doesn't is allow for your ranged characters to get an opportunity attack when a melee character crits. As far as I remember they don't stack as the main effect does the same thing with different wording. There is no double proc.
Personally I'd take Outflank as a feat on the characters that need it and if you really want Seize the Moment, try and give it as one of the classes that have the Tactician teamwork ability

[RedwoodElf]

Doesn't a ranged character with Snap Shot threaten a radius? I do believe that counts as "Threatening" that area, which can allow it to count as "flanking" creatures in that area as well.

[Babbles]

Nah, that ain't stacking

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2878933715

The problem in Wrath is you want Outflank then Combat Reflexes then about a million other feats, Seize the Moment isn't really needed, especially with the Mythic Perk Ever Ready ...

[Nero]

They don't stack, StM is obsolete except for ONE thing: Inquisitors with Solo Tactics.
(or you have something like a almost ranged-only party)

Outflank and StM both require at least two people to have them.
So they do the same in the end and do not stack.
Outflank adds a lil bonus when you flank.

StM is a big big trap in this game.

[TOLYAN JIGAN]

Originally posted by Nero:

They don't stack, StM is obsolete except for ONE thing: Inquisitors with Solo Tactics.
(or you have something like a almost ranged-only party)

Outflank and StM both require at least two people to have them.
So they do the same in the end and do not stack.
Outflank adds a lil bonus when you flank.

StM is a big big trap in this game.

Fighter with a bow can benefit from StM too, and he can be only one who pick this feat. Wenduag is a obvious choise here.

[Icedfate]

i could never understand all the teamwork feat.
each one has to be taken at the expense of some other feat.
like, i always thought the essential feats for any melee are weapon focus, dodge, improves crits, blind fight, improved 2 weapons(if dual wielding), but then you also have to somehow fit in outflank, sieze the moment, precision teamwork etc.. .

for the first time ever, i decided to make sure to give every melee on my team the outflank feat and it's subtle, but it seems to help immensely. (it's not actually a +4, it's +2. because you normally get +2 for flanking without it, outflank changes that bonus to +4, so it's a net increase of +2).

I always see builds saying to take combat reflexes, because it lets you make more attacks of opportunity and i never understand how to control when i can trigger those. I know they trigger if i trip an enemy and it stands up or they trigger when a enemy runs past. .sieze the moment just looks like the teamwork version of combat reflexes, but then i guess both of those stack?

of which, i noticed this happens a lot, especially the enemies running past, i'll see them just charge past my melee front line and eat the AOO's to go for my mages and i have noticed that when i only get 1 AOO, it kinda sux, so i do see the value of getting multiple AOO.

and then there's that one feat that gives your comrades a free AOO whenever you crit and i guess that's how people get that chain reaction domino effect i see in videos where i'll see their guys charge in and then instant AOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOO pop up on the screen and i'm always like "wtf, how do they do that?"

but again, if i'm supposed to be taking teamwork feats, then what feats am i supposed to be dumping in exchange?

[Nero]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

i could never understand all the teamwork feat.
each one has to be taken at the expense of some other feat.
like, i always thought the essential feats for any melee are weapon focus, dodge, improves crits, blind fight, improved 2 weapons(if dual wielding), but then you also have to somehow fit in outflank, sieze the moment, precision teamwork etc.. .

for the first time ever, i decided to make sure to give every melee on my team the outflank feat and it's subtle, but it seems to help immensely. (it's not actually a +4, it's +2. because you normally get +2 for flanking without it, outflank changes that bonus to +4, so it's a net increase of +2).

I always see builds saying to take combat reflexes, because it lets you make more attacks of opportunity and i never understand how to control when i can trigger those. I know they trigger if i trip an enemy and it stands up or they trigger when a enemy runs past. .sieze the moment just looks like the teamwork version of combat reflexes, but then i guess both of those stack?

of which, i noticed this happens a lot, especially the enemies running past, i'll see them just charge past my melee front line and eat the AOO's to go for my mages and i have noticed that when i only get 1 AOO, it kinda sux, so i do see the value of getting multiple AOO.

and then there's that one feat that gives your comrades a free AOO whenever you crit and i guess that's how people get that chain reaction domino effect i see in videos where i'll see their guys charge in and then instant AOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOOAOO pop up on the screen and i'm always like "wtf, how do they do that?"

but again, if i'm supposed to be taking teamwork feats, then what feats am i supposed to be dumping in exchange?

What to dump? This depends on the build.
But the real thing is: Outflank is probably the strongest feat in the game (mythics aside)
When all your melees (and pets) go wild because of one crit... some fights end within seconds.

Outflank is the reason why people love weapons with high crit-ranges and go for improved critical and maybe even Ever-Ready

StM and Combat Reflexes are just meh.

[B Unit]

Originally posted by Icedfate:

but again, if i'm supposed to be taking teamwork feats, then what feats am i supposed to be dumping in exchange?

You can basically pretend no other teamwork feats exist except for Outflank (unless you're an Azata with Life Bonding Friendship or a Battle Scion or something)

[Icedfate]

yeah, i took outflank with everyone.
i've seen fottage of people playing on unfair and this one guy had every teamwork feat in the book and i was like, i really wish he would have shared that build.

[forkofspite]

Originally posted by Nero:

StM and Combat Reflexes are just meh.

Mostly agreed for Seize - could be useful for ranged crits letting melees take an AOO, but the opportunity cost for that is probably too high.

Disagree about combat reflexes being meh. If your melees using outflank are in range of multiple opponents, the first crit will use up those AOOs. You're giving up AOOs in case iterative attacks or a different character crits on a different enemy. It's noticeable in turn-based, but I don't know about real-time.

[Nazkai]

Thanks Everyone, it sounds like aside from (just for fun) STM is pretty much never going to be "Better" to pick over outflank. One could perhaps have some fun with setups such as multiple archers using the Snapshot line of feats and STM along with perhaps combat reflexes and perhaps Ever Ready in order to have (for example) a kind of Machine gun Lann or Zen Archer build that is more in the mix then say your typical long range archers and Rangers tend to be.

In my case the above scenario (for fun) creating kind of a Legolas like rapid fire style mid to melee ranged archer might be at least "Fun" to play around with.

Thanks for all the constructive feedback and experience folks!

[Nero]

Originally posted by forkofspite:

Originally posted by Nero:

StM and Combat Reflexes are just meh.

Mostly agreed for Seize - could be useful for ranged crits letting melees take an AOO, but the opportunity cost for that is probably too high.

Disagree about combat reflexes being meh. If your melees using outflank are in range of multiple opponents, the first crit will use up those AOOs. You're giving up AOOs in case iterative attacks or a different character crits on a different enemy. It's noticeable in turn-based, but I don't know about real-time.

I know that Combat Reflexes has its uses.
But some builds simply don't have that much Dex.

Ever Ready is superior if one has a mythic to spare.
Since each AoO is only applied once for each opportunity, chances are high within six seconds you won't do more than three.
And even Ever Ready is mostly a win-more thing


@Nazkai:
If your party is ranged heavy StM could be better.
But this really means 2 melees and four ranged characters or so.
But ranged doesn't mean Ember with a crossbow in this case.

[Nazkai]

Originally posted by Nero:

Originally posted by forkofspite:

Mostly agreed for Seize - could be useful for ranged crits letting melees take an AOO, but the opportunity cost for that is probably too high.

Disagree about combat reflexes being meh. If your melees using outflank are in range of multiple opponents, the first crit will use up those AOOs. You're giving up AOOs in case iterative attacks or a different character crits on a different enemy. It's noticeable in turn-based, but I don't know about real-time.

I know that Combat Reflexes has its uses.
But some builds simply don't have that much Dex.

Ever Ready is superior if one has a mythic to spare.
Since each AoO is only applied once for each opportunity, chances are high within six seconds you won't do more than three.
And even Ever Ready is mostly a win-more thing


@Nazkai:
If your party is ranged heavy StM could be better.
But this really means 2 melees and four ranged characters or so.
But ranged doesn't mean Ember with a crossbow in this case.

Yup thanks I hear you - I am still wanting to (Try) a Machine gun snap shot feat line Medium to melee range AOO Lann for fun though.

Question to yourself and others on that idea. If one was to build a team based around STM and themed around say a "Machine Gun Archer" style Lann/Zen Archer or 2 with STM and Combat Reflexes - would Ever Ready be overkill in that case or still of any use?

If only taking one of the two when is Ever Ready superior to Combat reflexes and when is it not?

Talking purely Turn Based in (my) instance.